Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2021 January 12

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January 12

Tolkien expert question – advanced: Where was the Balrog before it faced the Fellowship?

At the beginning of the famous epic scene of the battle between Gandalf and Durin's Bane, we see the fellowship noticing the presence of the creature entering the Second Hall. Regarding the architecture / topography of Khazad Dum – either as for the account of the book or the representation in The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring –, where exactly is the most likely place (hall?) the balrog would have appeared from before entering the Second Hall? Wouldn't one have to actually consider its dwelling place far, far beneath the areas passed by the "intruders"? Why did it come in "orderly" through the hall's entrance gate (and not e. g. from the great chasm), then?--Hildeoc (talk) 15:31, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

The location of Durin's Bane is not known between when it killed Durin VI to when it encountered the Fellowship: [1]. It had free reign of the caverns and mines, so presumably in the millenium between its documented appearances, it happened to be somewhere to access the Chamber of Mazarbul The Chamber had two main doors, but also a side smaller side door which the Fellowship fled through when the Balrog arrived. It is unclear which of the two main doors on either end the Balrog entered from; it could have been the same one the Fellowship used (if it had been following the Fellowship unbeknownst to them) or through the other door where they would not have encountered it. Moria/Khazad-dum would have been consisted of a vast network of tunnels, caverns, chambers, etc. so the places the Balrog could have come from would have been vast and likely that Tolkien never bothered to map them out, even for himself. Tolkien establishes the place as hopelessly confusing and vastly messy anyways; it isn't like they were following a single path that led them straight to the Chamber and then on to the Staircase. This is an underground kingdom that would have had thousands of miles of tunnels branching out in all three dimensions. There are a LOT of places for the Balrog to have been and been unnoticed by the Fellowship until it was too late. --Jayron32 16:58, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I should also note that Durin's Bane was not encountered by the other dwarf colonies who attempted to re-establish Moria after it had been initially abandoned. There were at least two such colonies; the one established in the TA 2790ish period that led to the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, and one a generation later led by Balin, during the events between the Hobbit and the LOTR. Both of those colonies failed due to conflicts with the Orcs that had established themselves in Moria after the kingdom was abandoned. According to this the Orcs placated the Balrog by worshiping it as a God; but I see no mention Dwarves encountering it during either colony. The Book of Mazarbul the chronicle of Balin's colony, makes no mention of it, only of the Watcher in the Water and of the Orcs. --Jayron32 17:10, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Speaking from memory now, but I think in some Tolkien writing we are told that after the war of DaO, one dwarf said "Now KD is ours", and another replied "Heck no, I stepped inside and I saw DB." Also, I think Gandalf mentioned caves and tunnels far below KD itself, the Balrog could have been spelunking there a bit. Also also, "The end comes soon. We hear drums, drums in the deep. They are coming." can be read as a hint that the Balrog came for Balin's colony. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:36, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I'd always read the drums as orcs... --Jayron32 13:15, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Haven't read the book in years, but I think my reading was that the drums summoned/heralded the Balrog. Of course they could also/instead be an orcish march. Perhaps Simon Tolkien has some inside info. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:41, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Dáin Ironfoot enters Khazad-dûm to kill Azog and apparently encounters the Balrog. That would have been TA 2799. After the battle, the dwarves discuss what to do next and Dáin explains that Moria is still unsafe, as he had seen Durin's Bane inside. As far as I know, that's the last the Balrog is seen until the events of the Fellowship of the Ring. For some reason, this cameo is seems to be omitted from here, but mentioned here. Matt Deres (talk) 19:55, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Btw Jayron32, colony "established in the TA 2790ish period", per [2], that's not really an established "colony", is it? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:07, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

I'd say the Balrog had free run, not free reign. Free rein is even less likely here. —Tamfang (talk) 02:26, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Tolkien expert question – advanced: Why was the Endless Stair built?

Resuming a question already asked – but, to my mind, insufficiently answered – here: "As far as we know, there's nothing down there (i. e. the very roots of the Misty Mountains where Ganadalf and the balrog end up after their epic fall from the Bridge of Khazad-Dum) except darkness, a flooded underground cavern, and nameless ancient monsters that gnaw at the roots of the earth. Why would the Dwarves shift tens of thousands of tons of rock and dig straight down to reach that?" – In advance, Gandalf himself states that the caves that led to the Endless Stair were not dug by the dwarves but instead by those said "nameless things"! (Thus, the mithril-hypothesis stated within the linked forum thread does not really work for this, in fact.) So why would the dwarves take the trouble to build an enormously deep staircase leading merely to a cave system of strange, ugly, primordial beasts?--Hildeoc (talk) 16:09, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

The stair leads to Durin's Tower, a watch tower on the top of the tallest peak of the Misty Mountains, Zirakzigil. Presumably, the stair is built up to access the tower, the downward direction into the caves of ancient monsters was an unintended consequence. Presumably the intersecting mining tunnels used by the dwarves intersected these pre-existing caverns without the dwarves knowing what they had found, and the stair built to access the surface and the tower. See [3] and [4]. --Jayron32 16:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

It adds the wow factor and boosts the resale value. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:15, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

How long did it take to complete this infinitely long staircase? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:27, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

For each step they became more proficient and worked faster by one tenth of one percent, so for the whole staircase they needed 1001 times the time they needed for the first step.  --Lambiam 11:01, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

An endless staircase needn't be infinitely long; it can have less than 50 steps, for example. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:38, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

@Lambiam: ???--Hildeoc (talk) 11:51, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

BB's imputation that the staircase was "infinitely long" insinuates that it could not have been completed, since the task would appear to require an infinite amount of time. But never underestimate them Middle-earth dwarves. As in Archimedes' resolution of Zeno's arrow paradox, the sum of infinitely many terms can have a finite result if they get progressively smaller, and definitely when they get smaller by a constant factor, which results in a geometric series. An infinite sum of decreasing terms 1 + 1⁄r + 1⁄r² + 1⁄r³ + ··· adds up to r⁄r−1. If r = 1.001 – corresponding to an increase in speed of 0.1% per step – this comes out as 1.001⁄0.001 = 1001. Since the Endless Stair was destroyed, we cannot count the number of steps to check whether they were infinite in number.  --Lambiam 12:23, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

@Lambiam: 😊 Well, actually not the whole stair was destroyed – only the uppermost part …--Hildeoc (talk) 13:27, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

That still makes it impossible to provide an accurate count of the original number – for all we know, a countless number of steps were destroyed.  --Lambiam 13:32, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Maybe they just engaged M.C. Escher to design it. Britmax (talk) 13:17, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

See above! :-)---Sluzzelin talk 13:44, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I keep trying to, but I never get there. Britmax (talk) 14:09, 14 January 2021 (UTC)