Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 September 26

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September 26

What ever happened to the Puritans' religion?

I was reading this article. I'm no history expert, so I can't judge the accuracy. Anyway, what ever happened to the Puritans? Did their beliefs transform? Did their descendants die out? Did their anti-Catholicism become absorbed in modern-day Baptist teachings? Looking up "puritanical" brings up a meaning that it's a derogatory term. Since when did it become derogatory? The website seems to paint a picture that they valued a more democratic church environment, where clergy wouldn't be able to say, "Ha-ha! I'm better than you!"71.79.234.132 (talk) 02:09, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

My understanding of what happened to the Puritans (at least in America) was that:

• They evolved into a number of Presbyterian and Congregationalist churches (particularly the latter).
• The Second Great Awakening caused the Methodists and Baptists to overwhelm those who weren't in the first category.

Baptists were historically as likely to be Arminian as Calvinist, and the increased popularity of Calvinism among American Baptists may have had to do with lapsed descendants of Puritans (nonetheless raised a strong belief in semi-predestinational Providence, like Abraham Lincoln) getting caught up.

Slightly off topic: Also, historical Baptists were (sadly) more likely to be anti-Catholic than modern Baptists. Transhumanism (although they haven't issued a statement yet, some views gave me the impression it won't be favorable when they do), LGBT marriage (for principle), and euthanasia are the main things keeping me from joining the Catholic Church (without leaving the Baptist Church, either). Most members of my church are good friends with Catholics. The Baptist anti-Catholics I've seen were mainly seen fringe fundamentalist groups clinging to 19th century beliefs. My (Baptist) grandparents were worried about my aunt marrying a Catholic, and their (mostly Baptist, some Methodist) grandparents wouldn't even associate with Catholics. However, it should be noted that I'm not a member of the Southern Baptist Convention, and usually leave a church when they start to take over. As such, my perception of Baptists is a bit skewed away from the most common conservative body among Baptists. Their current criticisms of the Catholic Church appear to be political rather than religious, however.

Ian.thomson (talk) 02:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

And they all claim to be Christians. LOL. HiLo48 (talk) 03:17, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

There's some major points they manage to agree on. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:33, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

All of them? The fact that the Christian churches all argued that others also claiming to be Christians had so much of it wrong was one of the things that convinced me they were probably all wrong. But obviously some can deal with the contradictions. HiLo48 (talk) 03:41, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

See my comments here... -- AnonMoos (talk) 12:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd think transhumanism is already ruled out by Catholic teaching, because it rests on the idea that you are essentially a mind, whereas Catholicism teaches that you are a body and soul. This is a core difference, so I would imagine a transhumanist would have difficulty assenting to Catholic teaching that touches on most things to do with the material world, human identity, or the nature of reality, let alone the afterlife. 86.136.125.63 (talk) 22:22, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

• As a child in elementary school I had two close friends who identified with the Pilgrims. One was Baptist, she warned me that my papism would condemn me to hell. The other was Presbyterian, and she warned me that my idolatry would send me to hell. Then when I was thirteen, my obviously gay Catholic priest gave a very odd sermon, which I finally figured out meant I was a heemaseshual, and that even though I was Catholic I was going to hell anyway. I think the great revivals of the 19th century explain how the Puritans retained their anti-Catholicism, but became political crusaders rather than witch burners. μηδείς (talk) 03:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
• Many individual Puritan congregations also converted to Unitarianism. Broadly speaking, the above are correct, regarding Congregationalists. That's the modern term for churches in New England that were begun by the Puritan settlers. But see also First Parish Church in Plymouth, First Church in Boston and First Parish Church (Duxbury, Massachusetts), three VERY early churches in Massachusetts that trace their history to the first settlers. It describes, briefly, the conversion from Congregationalism to Unitarianism. Congregational church#Unitarianism also describes the broader trend. --Jayron32 10:35, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The article linked by the person asking the question implies that most Puritans came to New England after the Commonwealth of England, but in fact, the peak of the Puritan migration was in the late 1630s and early to mid-1640s before the Commonwealth. In England, most Puritans became Dissenters, later known as Nonconformists, after the Act of Uniformity of 1662. Many became part of the English Congregationalist Church, which was absorbed (along with Presbyterians, some of whose congregations were also descendants of the Puritans) in 1972 by the United Reformed Church. Marco polo (talk) 00:23, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Property in the Enlightenment

I know that natural rights, social contract theory, popular sovereighty, and democracy/republicanism were important themes in the Age of Enlightenment, but how central was the concept of property to it? I look throughout history and across the world and property seems to be a rather ubiquitous institution present everywhere from feudal Europe to totalitarian North Korea. Was property really that important an idea to Enlightenment philosophers? — Melab±1 ☎ 02:10, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Property#Modern philosophy briefly outlines the thoughts of several enlightenment thinkers. --Jayron32 10:31, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Are we still living in a world dominated by the western civilization?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Are we living in a world dominated by the western civilization? The immense global influence of the western powers remains unparalleled by any other non-western cultures and civilizations today. History also tells us that the western civilization has brought about most of the significant events that shaped the modern world. From pop-culture to world politics and economy, the western powers are undeniably on top. Does this mean that the west has upper-hand in out time? What is your take on this matter?Sabone123 (talk) 04:01, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Our take on this matter is "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate." See the sign at the top. Also, this sounds a bit like an essay topic, which we also don't help with. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:06, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

See the following works:

The Closing of the American Mind by Allan Bloom. This website (and this page in particular) exemplifies his main argument.

The End of History and the Last Man by Francis Fukuyama. Rendered otiose by the subsequent rise of Islamic fundamentalism.

The Triumph of the West by John Roberts.

176.227.135.82 (talk) 09:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

boat on dry land

A short distance between AT&T Park and Red's Java House in San Francisco is a boat which is on dry land. It's used for corporate parties. What's the boat called?74.66.90.189 (talk) 07:46, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Do you want the name of that structure, or the general phenomenon (in some manifestations called "boats in a moat")? AnonMoos (talk) 12:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Obviously the first. The location seems to be here, perhaps the OP could pinpoint the boat he's talking about on that photo. --Viennese Waltz 13:01, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't see the boat in the photo. Perhaps a street view would be more helpful.74.66.90.189 (talk) 18:49, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you could tell us where in those several blocks you saw it. —Tamfang (talk) 08:21, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The boat on dry land is probably near some other docked vessels in the area.74.66.90.189 (talk) 12:41, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Where are you seeing it in Google Maps? What's the nearest street intersection and/or other building? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:24, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not seeing it in the photo, I just linked to a photo of the area between AT&T Park and Red's Java House. I expected the OP to tell us where on the photo the boat is. --Viennese Waltz 16:00, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

The OP seems not to be able to find it. Presumably he needs to go into Google Maps Street View and pinpoint it. By the time he does that, though, he might also have the answer. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:08, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Let's try King and Brannan Streets.74.66.90.189 (talk) 02:45, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't see it. Have you tried Google Maps Street View? Do you live anywhere near there? Where did you see a reference to this shore-bound boat? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:09, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

While I was in the San Francisco Bay Area, I'd pass the boat while riding a light-rail vehicle from and to the Caltrain Depot.74.66.90.189 (talk) 06:44, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

List of religions and spiritual traditions

Except Abrahamic Religions all other religions are classified as per their Geographical locations or as per their philosophical names. My question is, On what basis the name Abraham is given the religions which are originated in Middle east regions. Even Abraham is not a prominent figure in all Middle east religions. So if my above argument is correct please change title from Abrahamic Religions to Middle East Religions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.241.84.1 (talk) 11:19, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

See Abrahamic religions for an explanation. The name is not synonymous with Middle Eastern religions. There are several Middle Eastern faiths (Zoroastrianism, for one example) which do not bear historic connection with Abrahamic religions. Abrhamaic religions DO have a common history, which is why they are grouped together. --Jayron32 11:28, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Ezra Pound's Envoi (1919) (Hugh Selwyn Mauberley): Who was the woman "that sang me once that song of Lawes"?

You may be familiar with Ezra Pound's poem Envoi (1919) which ends the first part of his work Hugh Selwyn Mauberley.

If you are, do you happen to know who the woman was that Pound says "sang me once that song of Lawes"?

Thanks.

Contact Basemetal here 13:02, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

There's no indication that he's referring to a real person, especially since the poem was a pastiche of "Go, Lovely Rose" by Edmund Waller [1]. This essay describes the woman in the poem as "a symbolic personification of Beauty". --Viennese Waltz 13:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to Viennese Waltz for this reply. I would encourage however other editors to not necessarily consider the question definitively answered. If you have convenient access to a biography of Pound maybe there's something there about the poem. I also seem to remember (maybe mistakenly) something about this in the Norton Anthology of Poetry. Does anyone know of an annotated edition of H. S. Mauberley? Contact Basemetal here 15:38, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

I can't claim to be up on the latest in Poundian scholarship, but I don't believe I've ever seen a definitive identification. For what it's worth, Pound's own answer to this question, when it was asked by his biographer Charles Norman, was "Your question is the kind of damn fool enquiry into what is nobody's damn business." Deor (talk) 01:30, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Deor. Ezra being his usual consistent self. How is a biographer supposed to worry about which enquiries are ok with the subject and which are not? When Ezra didn't like a question apparently it was "the kind of damn fool enquiry into what is nobody's damn business". I suspect there's a few of those he'd been asked over the years. But it's not a biographer's job to worry if information might or not annoy his subject. Why work with a biographer at all then? Contact Basemetal here 11:22, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

There is an identification after all. Got it through the Ezra Pound Society. The relevant part of the email I received goes as follows:

There was some critical dialogue about this question many years ago, but the best place to look is a note in Paideuma by Eva Hesse, "Raymonde Collignon, or the Duck That Got Away," Pd 10 (Winter 1981): 583-84. There she prints a personal 1953 letter from Pound that makes the ID pretty conclusive. The real question is whether it matters -- to the poem, that is. I think it doesn't.

But for the curious, there's sufficient information about Raymonde Collignon in Ezra Pound and Music, and the correspondence at the Beinecke indicates an enduring friendship. Pound probably first heard music by Lawes (Henry and/or his brother William) during an early visit with Dolmetsch. He often persuaded singer friends to sing music for him privately that was not performed in public. Insight into this habit can be found in an item missed by all of EP's biographers, a chapter in Grace Lovat Fraser's memoir In the Days of My Youth (London: Cassell, 1970), where she describes his efforts to get her to sing early music.

Once I knew it was Raymonde Collignon I could find not much but something about her, for example from this page at the Online Archive of California (whatever that is), that she was born in 1894 (but no date of death) and that it's been known for some time that she "provided Pound his singing model for the closing lyrics of the two sections of Hugh Selwyn Mauberly".

Cheers,

Contact Basemetal here 09:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

She really "went to town" then

When did the expression come into existence of she "went to town" meaning she really worked hard at it then to accomplish something? Where was it first used?--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 15:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

The website http://www.word-detective.com/ is a good place to research these things. You can even make requests for words or phrases they haven't already covered. --Jayron32 16:11, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

From the OED, under 'town' P2. to go to town . (the following is a direct quote with usage citations, sorry about the formatting):

b slang (orig. Jazz).

To do something energetically, enthusiastically, or without restraint, esp. in response to a particular situation or opportunity. Freq. with on.

1933 Fortune Aug. 47/1 Returning to Trombonist Brown, he can get off, swing it, sock it, smear it, or go to town (all of which mean syncopate to beat the band).

1934 Winnipeg Free Press 1 Nov. 18/3 Some of these speedy skaters will really be able to ‘go to town’ on that spacious surface in St. Paul.

1958 A. Hocking Epit. for Nurse ix. 159 The local papers naturally went to town over the murder of Sister Biggs.

1960 N. Hilliard Maori Girl ii. ix. 128 ‘It's funny as hell to see girls fight.’.. ‘They're really tough sorts, and boy! do they go to town. And swear! Punching and spitting and pulling hair.’

1972 P. M. Hubbard Whisper in Glen vii. 67 Whoever had painted the thing, he had gone to town on his picture.

2001 Contact May 38/2 The exhibitors really go to town, sparing little expense in their efforts to create colour and entertain visitors.

-- So, like many of our phrases, it seems we can thank the Jazz community. Note that OED is not claiming that 1933 is the first usage, just the earliest one in print that they are aware of that clearly communicates the concept. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

People in rural areas and suburbs often need to literally go to town to do business. I've always figured that's where it was first used, but citation needed. InedibleHulk (talk) 19:28, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

That's my OR take on the expression. If you exchange "go to town" with "take care of business", in the vernacular sense it usually has the same connotation. 71.20.250.51 (talk) 21:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

The old 8:15 into the city. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:20, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Dag-nabbit!   Now I can't get that song out of my head!  71.20.250.51 (talk) 23:28, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Now I can't get 71.20.250.51 out of my head... DuncanHill (talk) 08:45, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Why not replace it with a different song? Like The Ring of the Nibelung, for example. I defy anyone to replay it in their head any more than 0 times. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:33, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Presumably it's an American variation of the English phrase 'to paint the town red'. 86.173.209.70 (talk) 06:27, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

According to Wiktionary, that's originally an American term for a wild night. Wouldn't make grammatical sense to paint the town red on something that isn't a town (or like one). InedibleHulk (talk) 06:44, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

A New York phrase, according to the Oxford English Dictionary's Twitter account, predating Wiktionary's first known use by a year. Somebody with an account there and here may want to change that. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:47, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Not according to the scholars of Wikipedia, who must be right; Paint the Town Red. 86.173.209.70 (talk) 10:39, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

What's worse than an unreferenced section? An unreferenced wall of text. Worse than that? Another article referring to it. Someone should go to town on that Marquess. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:26, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you gentlemen.--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 18:25, 29 September 2014 (UTC)