Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 February 11

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

February 11

Third Lady of the United States

Of all the wives of the Speakers of the House (we know that the first 2 ladies are the wife of the President and the wife of the Vice President,) how many are there total and how many have Wikipedia articles?? Is there any reason this position is not notable?? Georgia guy (talk) 01:51, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Why things don't matter is subjective, of course, but I think living in the White House does a lot for the First Lady's prestige. The Second Lady was pretty much born out of wordplay. Sort of clever, but trying to get a Third Lady to catch on would be stretching it too far, and a tough (but not impossible) sell. Like how only Eighth Wonder of the World really works. Everybody's at least vaguely aware of the Seven, but if you call yourself the Ninth, you have to explain to too many that André the Giant was the Eighth. There's a diminishing return on these trickle-down allusions. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:35, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Also kind of ruined by Paul Pelosi's penis. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:45, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Is that the real Eighth Wonder of the World? Nancy is a lucky gal... --Jayron32 15:47, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

As for biological ladies, we have Callista Gingrich, Mariette Rheiner Garner (also a Second), Alice Roosevelt Longworth (liked William Borah better), Ellen Maria Colfax (also a Second) and Sarah Childress Polk (also a First). Linn Boyd was a guy, just had George W. Cate's daughter's name. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:18, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

• Just to pile on: The First Lady has always had some (unofficial, but traditional) duties that make the position "a thing". As noted at First Lady of the United States, these duties often include things like managing the household of the White House, and has an official Office of the First Lady of the United States with its own staff and duties. The "Second Lady" is to the First Lady as the Vice President is to the President, and I will only provide the most cogent quote about the Vice Presidency as a means of understanding the importance of the Second Lady. Sayeth John Adams, the first man to hold the office "My country has in its wisdom contrived for me the most insignificant office that ever the invention of man contrived or his imagination conceived..." --Jayron32 15:54, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

That could just be sour grapes, considering that in his mind, he wasn't measuring his post against one with a term not exceeding most groundhog's natural lives, but against "His High Mightiness, the President of the United States and Protector of Their Liberties". Self-imposed or not, that's a hefty shadow to mope under. Thought it may not have been "a thing" yet, it seems many of his peers hailed him with the same respect and admiration that modern society bestows upon its reigning and defending Drama Queens. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:01, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

To be fair, he's not the first Veep to note the uselessness of the office. John Nance Garner said that the office "wasn't worth a bucket of warm piss". Though if that means he preferred his piss chilled, I can't say. Daniel Webster, on refusing the nomination to be a vice presidential candidate said "I don't intend to be buried until I am dead". Theodore Roosevelt on first declining (though he later accepted) the nomination to be McKinley's running mate. "I would a great deal rather be anything, say professor of history, than vice president." Woodrow Wilson: "The chief embarrassment in discussing the office is that in explaining how little there is to say about it one has evidently said all there is to say." Nelson Rockefeller, Gerald Ford's Veep, on the totality of his job requirements: "I go to funerals. I go to earthquakes." John McCain, on turning down an offer in 2000 to be George W. Bush's running mate: "The vice president has two duties. One is to inquire daily as to the health of the president, and the other is to attend the funerals of Third World dictators. And neither of those do I find an enjoyable exercise" It wasn't that Adams was merely the first VP to bemoan the uselessness of the job. He was the first among many, through the ages. --Jayron32 15:43, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

I thought Garner said a "bucket of warm spit". Frankly, urine has its uses. In any case, anyone who's had a CT scan with oral contrast knows that piss, spit, bowel prep, whatever, it all tastes much better chilled. μηδείς (talk) 20:52, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be great if the Wikipedia article directly addressed that quote? Oh wait, it does. He said "piss". Puritanical high school textbook authors later bowdlerized it. --Jayron32 00:09, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Especially the chihuahua vintage. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:23, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

To me, those sound more like clever quips than whining. I think it's the "in its wisdom" part. Or that the later VPs based their complaints on years of useless precedent (and jokes). As the first, Adams is somewhat to blame for the whole reputation, even if we can chalk his tone up to floweriness being the style of the time. InedibleHulk (talk) 13:21, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Foule sluts in dairies

In Richard Corbet's The Fairies Farewell we read "Farewell rewards and Fairies!/ Good housewives now may say;/ For now foule sluts in dairies/ Doe fare as well as they". Now, my question is were dairymaids regarded as particularly dirty in the 17th century? One tends nowadays to think of them as rather well-scrubbed. DuncanHill (talk) 06:31, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Google Books seems to be flooded with just the poem and not much commentary on it. WP:OR guess: I could see it being a pun of a few different sorts (like "get thee to a nunnery" in Halmet), as a euphemism for brothel. Ian.thomson (talk) 06:51, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not aware of it being used for brothel (neither is the OED), and I think slut here means "A woman of dirty, slovenly, or untidy habits or appearance; a foul slattern" with perhaps a shade of the rare meaning "A kitchen-maid; a drudge" (both from the OED). After asking the question it did strike me that Corbet may simply be contrasting "good housewives" with "foul sluts", and the dairies could be common to both. The verse continues "And though they sweepe their hearths no less/ Than mayds were wont to doe,/ Yet who of late for cleaneliness/ Finds sixe-pence in her shoe?" so it does seem that physical, rather than moral, cleanliness is the issue here (and I doubt the Fairies were overly concerned with a young woman enjoying a little, or even a lot, of what she fancied). DuncanHill (talk) 07:01, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

I found several 18th and early 19th century references which hint that dairy maids might have been less than models of moral rectitude, or at least available for the use their social superiors:

• "Blushington, I'll take a turn over your grounds... kiss your game-keeper's daughter, rumple your dairy-maid, and so on..." The Select London Stage: A Collection of the Most Reputed Tragedies, Comedies Etc (London 1824).
• "I gain an involuntary conquest over the cookwench and dairy-maid..." The Adventures of Roderick Random Tobias Smollett (London 1778)
• "When he was a boy, and, 'tis no great matter, his "amorous disposition" got him into trouble. Like his ancestor's son, Henry VIII, he made love to a dairy-maid, but with less success, for she turned the key of the royal dairy at Kew and kept him a close prisoner for six mortal hours." The Life of Thomas Coutts, Banker Ernest Hartley Coleridge.

Alansplodge (talk) 16:22, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

The "physically dirty" meaning might be the correct one, as hygiene in a dairy would be difficult to maintain at the time, with cow manure being likely to be on the milk maid's clothing, or shoes at the very least. StuRat (talk) 16:39, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I think the "physically dirty" reading is certainly correct, but DuncanHill already knows that. Dairymaid was considered a relatively respectable line of work, and dairymaids had more status and a better reputation than household servants. Dairymaids also had a reputation for being pretty (possibly because they tended to get cowpox, which was not disfiguring and gave protection against smallpox), so some references to amorous activity must be expected, but there are far fewer than for, say, chambermaids or seamstresses. Although dairymaids do not seem to have had a special reputation for dirtiness, it would have been difficult for a dairymaid to avoid manure, so the imputation seems reasonable. John M Baker (talk) 16:56, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

The info that your research has turned up DuncanHill, Alansplodge and StuRat is quite interesting. As I read your posts I started wondering if the "six maids a milking" in the venerable (or unending depending on your point of view) The Twelve Days of Christmas (song) might have a meaning that I had never known about. That article had a link to WikiP's milkmaid article where I found this section Milkmaid#.22As smooth as a milk maid.27s skin.22 which might have some relevance to this discussion. I also wonder if any of your findings might be worth adding to that article. Thanks to everyone for your time and efforts. MarnetteD|Talk 17:01, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

John M Baker you made your post while I was adding the above. The link I found confirms your info so nice work on your part as well. MarnetteD|Talk 17:01, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Of course, Corbet might just have put his foule sluts in dairies, as opposed to anywhere else, to get the rhyme! DuncanHill (talk) 17:11, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

I can't help thinking of this joke, frequently seen in London. Alansplodge (talk) 17:17, 11 February 2016 (UTC)