Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2016 February 26

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February 26

FDR's black arm-band - mourning in mid 20th century USA

The question about Roosevelt's Fireside Chats encouraged me to read the article. In a couple of the pictures he is wearing a black arm-band. The file page for one, 11 September 1941, File:FDR-September-11-1941.jpg says it is in mourning for his mother who had died on the 7th. That of the second, 23 February 1942, File:FDR-Map-1942.jpg does not mention the arm-band. Would he still have been wearing mourning for his mother at this time, or was it for someone else? DuncanHill (talk) 00:18, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Here are some answers from 8 years ago, which may or may not be convincing.[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:41, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

And this Google Books excerpt[2] claims he wore that armband for over a year. As pointed out on Ken Burns' film about the Roosevelts, FDR was very close to his mother. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:43, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, unfortunately I don't get an excerpt on Google on that link. DuncanHill (talk) 10:50, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Maybe it's PC-specific. I found it by googling "fdr black armband". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:03, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

I suspect it may be to do with Google's agreements with publishers as to what they can shew in different territories. "fdr black armband" (in quotes) gives 1 ghit only, and variations of fdr black armband + Jean Edward Smith do not give me any comparable results. DuncanHill (talk) 17:26, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Ah, so US only, eh? I'll see if I can transcribe a short quote from it - and also to name th book and page, which could help. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:36, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

From the book FDR by Jean Edward Smith, page 505: "Roosevelt remained at Hyde Park several days, sorting Sara's things. He wore a black armband on the left sleeve of his jacket and would continue to do so for well over a year." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:39, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

That seems conclusive, thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 17:52, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

And, in case you are wondering, black armbands for mourning somewhat went out of fashion, as the armband was a common NAZI decoration: [3]. Thus, it went out of fashion along with the previously popular toothbrush mustache and the name Adolf. (Although black armbands are apparently still used for mourning in association football/soccer.) StuRat (talk) 17:13, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps it's most common but it's hardly unique to football, also sometimes worn in rugby [4], cricket [5], baseball [6], skiing [7]. Black armbands were also used for protest reasons (sometimes as a form of mourning) post WW2 in the US most commonly in sport but also sometimes in non sport arease.g. Lloyd Eaton#"Black 14" controversy, [8]/Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District & [9] (although the later isn't just armbands). Which is not to suggest black armbands as a form of protest is unique to the US [10], [11], Black armband protest and perhaps [12] (although at the real borderline between protest and genuine mourning for deaths). Those are all sport but [13] although non RS does mention one non sport example also [14] and [15]. This source [16] suggest that one possible reason why black armbands are less common in basketball and American football is due to a lack of proper sleeves as well as an apparent desire to come up with special forms of commeration/mourning. As some of these sources attest, the IOC doesn't seem very happy with black armbands in the olympics. Nil Einne (talk) 18:30, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

BTW, our article you linked to doesn't mention anything about it dying out as a form of mourning in non sports areas due to the association with Nazi armbands. I can find plenty of discussions agreeing it died out but they don't give a clear reason why [17], [18] (mentions possible Nazi association but no one actually says it's the reason and more people say it's unlikel to be associated with Nazism and more likely to be associated with e.g. the Vietnam era protests), [19], [20], [21]. In fact, these sources don't even say when it died out. Some of them do suggest it may be due to changes in the way people handle mourning and display grief nowadays. (At least in the anglosphere.) Nil Einne (talk) 18:40, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

A pair of Wilde Cornish barons

Thomas Wilde, 1st Baron Truro and James Wilde, 1st Baron Penzance were uncle and nephew. Both took titles after places in Cornwall - Truro and Penzance respectively, yet neither, from our articles, appears to have any connexion with Cornwall. Can anyone shed any light on their choice of titles? DuncanHill (talk) 16:55, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

The Complete Peerage contains a disapproving footnote regarding the title Baron Truro of Bowes, co. Midx., this being one of several peerage titles wherein a town of one county is described as being of a village in another, but does not describe any connection with Truro nor does it mention why the title was chosen. It is similarly unenlightening as to the 1st & last Baron Penzance, of Penzance, co. Cornwall. - Nunh-huh 07:12, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

The "Bowes" part comes from Thomas Wilde's home at the time of his elevation; Bowes Park. [22] Nothing yet on the Cornish connection. Alansplodge (talk) 09:49, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

I've drawn a bit of a blank I'm afraid. The most detail I could find was in Punch magazine April 17, 1869 (p. 161); "The Judge in Divorce is very deservedly raised to the Peerage. SIR JAMES WILDE takes a Cornish title, and is LORD PENZANCE. We might think that, considering His Lordship's avocation, another title, Lord St Keyne of the Well, might have been as appropriate. But that is his business". You have to read St. Keyne's Holy Well to understand the joke. Alansplodge (talk) 18:45, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks - I did get the joke without reading the article! DuncanHill (talk) 19:20, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

And me a Cornishman (or at least the son of a Cornishman); shame upon me. Alansplodge (talk) 01:30, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

And you don't know your Southey either! DuncanHill (talk) 01:40, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

I have to admit my ignorance there, although I can recite most of The Battle of Blenheim by heart, if that's any mitigation. Alansplodge (talk) 03:27, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

It is :) DuncanHill (talk) 01:04, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

• Walmart carries frozen Wilde Cornish barons, [Oops, game hens] two-for-five dollars in the poultry section. But make sure you get the ones packaged in pairs; two loose ones don't get you the discount. μηδείς (talk) 22:31, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

I tried to get a brace of barons at my Walmart, and they gave me a joint of beef wearing suspenders... - Nunh-huh 22:40, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

I can't get the image of Cornel Wilde out of my head. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:34, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

U.S. Senators/Representatives in remainder to British peerages

Was Malcolm Wallop the only member of the United States Congress to have been in remainder to a British peerage, or were there more?--The Traditionalist (talk) 17:05, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

His article states that " He is thought to be the only person to have served in both the English House of Lords and the Wyoming House of Representatives." and has a citation. You could follow that citation to see the source of the claim. --Jayron32 17:19, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

A near miss may be Charles S. Fairfax, who was the 10th Lord Fairfax of Cameron and a California State Assemblyman. By the middle 1800s, the Lords Fairfax were the only family of American born peers. They did move back to the UK, however, with Albert Fairfax, 12th Lord Fairfax of Cameron reclaiming the family seat in Lords. --Jayron32 17:23, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

For clarity, the article is referring to Malcolm Wallop's paternal grandfather Oliver Henry Wallop not to Malcolm Wallop when it talks about serving in the House of Lords and Wyoming House of Representatives. Malcolm Wallop never served in the House of Lords (but did serve in the Wyoming and US senates as well as the Wyoming HOR). Nil Einne (talk) 18:02, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Ah, yes. Thank you. --Jayron32 19:17, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Just one thing. It hasn't been the "English" House of Lords since 1707, when England united with Scotland to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain (it's undergone 2 further name changes since then). Now it's the UK, or British, House of Lords. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:32, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Does college attendance affect the credit score?

I mean not just indirectly (getting a better job, or being deep in debt), but could college attendance affect (or not) credit scores in the sense that credit agencies compute it as a variable? --Scicurious (talk) 22:29, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Just to clarify, you are talking about credit rating, right ? At first read, I thought you were asking if actually showing up to class affected your number of college credits earned. StuRat (talk) 23:00, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I want to know the direct relationship between college degrees (or just being an undergrad), and credit score for obtaining, well, credit. Do they give a higher score to students and recent graduates in fields with low employment and high salaries (like medicine) and lower to, for example, women's studies?--Scicurious (talk) 23:04, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

As far as I know, in the US a credit score reflects solely what credit you've obtained and how often you've paid it back properly. Thus a potential lender would consider it along with other indicators like income, education, or job potential. Loraof (talk) 23:39, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

I've had experience in the UK processing applications for credit - for credit cards, for mortgages, and for commercial contracts. For personal credit the decision to extend credit or not, and how much, would not be influenced by a person's educational background. Relevant factors would include income, the level of existing debt, record in meeting payments on existing credit, nature of home tenure (renting, home owner, living with parents, etc), cost of housing, stability of employment, and (particularly for mortgages) a good match between declared addresses and electoral registration. DuncanHill (talk) 00:03, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

I'll just add that different lenders will attach different weights to different factors, so the idea of having a single "credit score" or "credit rating" is somewhat misleading. Credit reference agencies will collect all the information they can, but it's up to the lender to decide what to ask for according to their own policies. DuncanHill (talk) 00:05, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

What is "a good match between declared addresses and electoral registration"? --Scicurious (talk) 00:07, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Re "a good match between declared addresses and electoral registration" - in the application the candidate would have to state addresses for the past (say) 6 years. We would then check to see that they were on the electoral register for those addresses at the times that they said they had lived there. DuncanHill (talk) 00:17, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Moving from banks to insurance agencies, and particularly car insurance agencies, they seem to delight in discriminating in every way they legally can. They not only ask about education level, but even discriminate based on where you live. See redlining. StuRat (talk) 00:13, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

But insurance companies know that they get significantly more claims from one area than another, so it makes business sense (the job of an actuary), although this may produce unfortunate social effects as described in your link. However, I can't see how the level of education is likely to affect the claims statistics. Alansplodge (talk) 09:46, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't think it's that surprising if there is a difference in some areas, perhaps life, health or income loss insurance, separate from income and all the other factors. I couldn't find mention of a study which specifically separated income from educational level, but there's definitely a lot of studies looking at the effect of educational level and life expectancy e.g. [23]. Car insurance is a little weirder but it still may be possible for there to be an effect separate from other issues. It may also depend on how easy it is to determine other factors. E.g. an office worker may be different from a manual labourer. So it may depend on whether the company is allowed to ask about your job for car insurance, and how detailed they are allowed or able to investigate related aspects. Nil Einne (talk) 13:03, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Aside from whether the information they use accurately predicts risk, there's a question of fairness. For example, if there was a risk differential based on race, would it then be fair to charge some races more than others ? (Many would argue that discriminating based on location is just a sneaky way to do this very thing.) StuRat (talk) 04:12, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

This will also depend on local laws of course. E.g. in NZ until fairly recently, credit reporting agencies could only collect negative information not positive information. In other words they could collect info on when you failed to pay a bill on time or your bill was sent to a debt collection agency or whatever. But not if you were paying all your bills on time, you had a debt with someone and meet the repayment schedule etc. (If you had a credit card or loan or whatever with the same bank, they would still be allowed to use the info on repayments AFAIK.) See [24] [25] [26] for more. The bank or whatever agency considering giving you credit will use this info, along with other info they may ask you to provide (which they're legally allowed to) in deciding whether to give credit. In other words, as DuncanHill has said, it isn't just the info provided by the credit reporting agency. AFAIK in NZ, at a minimum income will be something you provide to the organisation you're seeking credit with not something that comes from the credit reporting agency. Nil Einne (talk) 13:20, 27 February 2016 (UTC)