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April 7[edit]

Proofs for russian genocide on Ukraïne (its people, children, culture, religion, identity as a people, ...)?[edit]

... according to the Genocide_Convention ( and most likely (obviously?) also to the [| UN Charta] ) --_14:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)~ 176.5.15.133 (talk) 14:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The UN Charter does not contain any reference to genocide. As defined in Article 1 of the Genocide Convention, for acts to be considered genocide requires that they are committed with the intent of destroying (in whole or in part) a group – in this case the Ukrainian people. Russia (Putin) will argue that this is not their intent; they merely want to reclaim territory that in the natural order of things belongs to Russia. The fascist government in Kiev stands in the way of a peaceful resolution, so a special military operation is needed to restore the natural order, which, unfortunately, inflicts some collateral damage. You may think of this argument what you want, but I don't see clear signs that Putin not only wants to annex the parts of Ukraine he has not already annexed, but moreover seeks to destroy the Ukrainians themselves. --Lambiam 17:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For an excellent lecture by prof. Timothy Snyder, proving that what the Russians do in Ukraine is genocide, see: 2022 Elie Wiesel Memorial Lecture with Timothy Snyder. — Kpalion^(talk) 09:58, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the International Criminal Court has issued an arrest warrant against Mr Putin, de facto leader of the Russian Federation, for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. I doubt it hits anything other than Mr Putin's ego. If there's a regime change in Russia resulting from Putin's death of natural causes, he won't be extradited; if the regime change happens before and Putin dies of unnatural causes resulting from the regime change, he won't be extradited either. The only way to get him in The Hague is to have him survive a regime change. Chances are, however, that Maria Lvova-Belova, wanted on the same charges and being 32 years younger than Vladimir Putin, will survive that regime change, giving her more reason for concern. PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The ICC warrant charges them with a war crime, but not with genocide. — Kpalion^(talk) 11:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't the Genocide Convention a standalone treaty that doesn't even need the ICC? Just facts & action. Seen, not even "imminent danger" but in fact crimes going on day by day, dead by dead, victim by victim.

How can bombing whole cities down to even earth not be against all laws, not be genocide.

How can deporting (lied 'evacuating') kids and youngsters deep into Russia - while at the same time tourists with children are on holidays on Crimea - not be genocide.

How can 'russification' of scholars in the occupied terrotories not be genocide.

How can depriving Ukrainian diabetes patients in the occupied regions of their insuline not be genocide.

__176.2.71.188 (talk) 00:31, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Genocide has a strict legal definition in international law and several conditions must be met to classify a crime, no matter how heinous, as genocide. However, I'm not saying that what the Russians are doing in occupied Ukraine is not genocide. Prof. Snyder, whose lecture I linked to above, shows how every single legal condition is met in this case, even though meeting only one of them would be sufficient to charge Putin with committing genocide. And yet genocide is not what the ICC charged him with in their warrant. — Kpalion^(talk) 08:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He talks a lot about historic parallels, about p°°°n's ideology. He states how and where and when and by what genocide (not only) in the Ukraïne meets criteria to label it as such.

Almost socio-philosophical lectures.

But what I'm asking for here is actually undeniable hard proofs, facts. Statements by victims, interviews with them on video, written and signed statements of victims, photos, satellite photos, statements at court on behalf of war crimes but not yet linked to a genocide accusation, war material, weapons (that <<cause unnecessary harm>>), chemical weapons, spread over the Ukraïne. You know. Real actual proofs. Of the kind that you can slam on the judge's desk. 176.3.86.229 (talk) 13:40, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If that existed, it's already in the hands of people who can do something with it. --Golbez (talk) 15:11, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...and name the genocide a "genocide".

But they don't.

While it's high time they did.

Seen that there's proofs.

176.2.133.76 (talk) 01:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but we can't do that, and I'm assuming neither can you, so this seems to be purely an exercise for fun. --Golbez (talk) 15:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yes, we can. Wikipedia can't prosecute anyone, but it can inform the world about an ongoing genocide, as long as there are reliable sources to back it up. I have provided some of these sources here. — Kpalion^(talk) 07:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(and then also, when searching for distinct information, a video is only third choice as you need to skip and cant do textsearch and cant crossread it) 176.3.86.229 (talk) 13:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Raphael Lemkin Center for Documenting Russian Crimes in Ukraine, established by the Pilecki Institute in Poland, has a website you may want to visit, but it seems that the testimonies collected by the Center are not available offline and can only be accessed in the reading rooms of the Library of the Pilecki Institute in Warsaw and Berlin. — Kpalion^(talk) 16:10, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

French Alsace, 1914-1918[edit]

Following the Battle of the Frontiers, France controlled a small section of Alsace throughout the First World War, the only part of Germany proper (versus colonies, e.g. Togoland) consistently held by the Allies. How were ordinary civilian affairs handled in this region during this period? Given the degree of French irredentism since 1871, I'm guessing it wasn't treated as conquered territory or annexed to adjoining French communes/departments (this would deny the rightfulness of its being part of France), but it seems very inconvenient to set up up new communes and a new department in a tiny war zone. I expect there was some sort of martial law in the region (just as I expect there was behind the rest of the French lines), but I can't imagine the French army wanting to oversee daily affairs like land transfers, wedding registrations, and street maintenance. Nyttend (talk) 22:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at de.wiki, it states that de:Montreux-Vieux was occupied by French troops in 1914 and annexed to France (along with the rest of Alsace) in 1919. So presumably France would have treated this areas as occupied German territory during the course of the war. Occupation regimes in WWI is a super-fascinating topic in itself, although it mainly happened on the eastern front.

Here we get a bit of description of what occurred with the onset of French occupation. Almost immediately after the occupation began the French police installed themselves at the building of the German commissariat in Montreux-Vieux. --Soman (talk) 11:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here (p. 37) there is detail on postal service in the 'liberated territories' during WWI. I only get snippet view, but headline of the chapter is "Military Post in service for civilians". The snippet indicates that from early 1915 the management of postal offices was removed from the municipalities and taken over by their Payeurs (which would have been an army official). Under this new regime six postal bureaus were set up between February 1915 and December 1916, serving a total of 25 communes. In 1917 the management of 'this postal service' was taken over by a centralized organization under the Ministry of War. Presumably the payeurs would have other functions visavi the local communities in the 25 communes apart from postal services. --Soman (talk) 12:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Soman, thank you. When you talk about the police, do you mean the national police, or something local? (I'm unable to read your citations, being unfamiliar with French.) I see from Law enforcement in France that some local policing exists, but it's is mostly a national matter — no surprise, this being highly centralised France. I'm particularly interested in local government, more than national matters like postal services and policing. Would the payeurs have overseen purely local affairs too? Nyttend (talk) 22:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Educational administration comes to mind (four long years), for a lot about it you may want to access Stephen L. Harp's 0i4omclCFyrIJQfLfuNaX Primary Schooling as Nation Building in Alsace and Lorraine, 1850–1940 (Cornell Press). From French sources, more generally the administration was military administration in a context of a will to seducing the Alsatians under the République contraried by some pro-German latent insurgency. Two names that are put forward as administrators are artillery captain Laurent-Atthalin and senior State official, currently captain Henry Poulet ( also count about 20 other senior officers more or less directly involved, numerous Commissions, discussions and diplomatic consultancies as well ). A number of Army lieutenants are in charge of all aspects that are to be organized, controlled and supervised, roads, forests, services. Civil servants are mostly kept in their offices except those suspected of the wrong loyalties, in which case they are to be led among the 8000 to 10000 foreign citizens placed into internment camps. In July 1917 a dedicated Military Mission (MMA) was set up, first under a secretary for general Administration, then the War Secretary, finally more directly under the Government. This is documented as an unconventional pattern intended to prepare an expected post-war integration of the whole Alsace-Lorraine territory back into the French nation. Post office "payeurs" would perhaps be tasked with relationship with troops, civil postal service stops at the so-called "border stations", inside of military controlled territory [[1]] civilian postal life is not distinguishable from the military. Payeurs would sometimes respond to inquiries by families regarding some MIA (17 Avril 1915), a reminder, also of their pivotal role in matter of Intelligence. Besides the circumstances, a cordial collaboration between local industrials and the administration is highlighted in sources, this is concretely illustrated by exchange bonds issued in 1914 such as [2], [3]. As to visualize what was life like, as it would have been seen by a free-lance reporter in 1915 ( reporters were not allowed in the area ), "ambulances" or "mobile hospitals" are the lead to follow as there are really plenty of them Letter S. There was one established at Saint-Amarin with a number of nurses and ambulances, as often known as under the patronage of a Loys Marquise. Links, [4][5][6][7]. Note that an anecdote from a local lady who was 13 years old in 1914 already describes the town mayor first meeting the French military officials, his wearing a red cross armband, eager to cooperate. --Askedonty (talk) 22:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]