Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 April 12

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April 12

accepted

How would one say 'accepted' in Mandarin, in the context 'a person was accepted into a university' or a university program, etc. Thanks

Duomillia 03:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You would use 進 (jìn), which is to enter. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 05:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You can use 進 if you want to say "I go to university next year", but if you want to say "I've been accepted by the ABC University", you should use huòqǔlù 获取录 to mean "been accepted". Cheers.--K.C. Tang 07:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

As in, "我在ABC大学获取录“？ Duomillia 16:46, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

if you want to exclaim "I've been accepted!", you can say "我获取录了!" if you want to say "I've been accepted by ABC University!", you can say "我获ABC大学取录了!" Hope it helps. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 01:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

My mother, who is a native Chinese speaker and translator, wants to make some modifications of K.C. Tang's translation:

Dear Sir,

I like to answer your question about the K.C. Tang's phrase "获取录".

"获" means "to obtain." "录取" means "admission." In standard Chinese, we say "录取"; we do not say "取录". "取录" may be a Japanese invocation.

Therefore, the actual verb expression is "获得录取," but this verb expression is *not* used in the passive verb sense as K.C. Tang has suggested (you can't just add the passive indicator and expect the sentence to make sense as a passive construction, i.e. "I was obtained admission to ABC university" does not hold logical meaning). Moreover, Mandarin has a lower tolerance for passive verb constructions, so it is always preferable to use the active voice.

The expression "获得录取" is also preferable because standard Chinese aspires for the balance given by four-character expressions. Indeed, there is a general habit among Chinese people to use four-character expressions, instead of those containing three (3) or five (5) characters. You can see this especially with regards to Chinese idioms, 99% of which are four-character expressions.

Since you are adding the phrase "to ABC university," you have to divide the original verb expression. Thus, the sentence "I obtained admission to ABC university" is best translated as: "我获得ABC大学的录取." The literal translation of this sentence is "I obtained ABC University's admission." This is the most correct and elegant way to translate your sentence, even if it requires you to switch to the active voice and give up your original syntax.

Hope this helps you out!--Myzembla 08:14, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Help with sign language

I am trying to teach myself Australian sign language and I thought it would be fun to do signs to the words of songs. I'm using Auslan's sign dictionary [1] to find the words to Here in Your Arms by Hellogoodbye but there are some that I still need translations for. Here are the lyrics with the words I need in bold.

"I like where we are, when we drive in your car, I like where we are, here, Cuz our lips can touch and our cheeks can brush, our lips can touch, here, You are the one, the one that lies close to me, whispers hello, I miss you quite terribly, I fell in love, in love with you suddenly, now there's no place else I could be but here in your arms"

Thanks in advance! --Candy-Panda 04:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know anything about Australian sign language, but I know that in American sign language (ASL), the grammar is very different, so translating individual words doesn't work. Using spoken English grammar with signs is called Signed English. In ASL, there is no sign for be/is/are/etc. A great resource for American sign language is [2], but I don't know how similar American/Australian sign language grammar/vocabulary are. Ingrid 04:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Origin of Teutul surname

Does anyone know the nationality of the surname Teutul, of American Chopper fame? —Angr 07:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The original form seems to have been "von Teutul", as in Claudius von Teutul, a notable genealogist. As for "Teutul", it sounds pretty Romanian to me. Herr Doktor von Teutul was a specialist on Bukovina and a descendant of Bukovina nobility, which seems to some support that impression. Bhumiya (said/done) 09:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

On closer inspection, it appears to be a Germanized form of "Tautul" or perhaps "Tăutul", as in Lehacenii-Tautului, Ukraine, formerly known in German as Lehuczeny des Teutul. So the name certainly seems to be Romanian in origin. Bhumiya (said/done) 10:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Desire to jump from a height.

Is there a name for a condition that makes someone, when they are up high, really want to jump. Not to die, nothing to do with suicide, I just find myself with a very strong urge to jump. Capuchin 13:21, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a name, but the urge is often associated with acrophobia. Skydiving might be just the sport for you.  --Lambiam^Talk 13:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I have definately thought about skydiving, and will probably take it up when i am a little older and more independant. I dont remember any traumatic experiences with heights. I absolutely love heights now, not really sure what's going on in my head. It really feels like an emotion, like if i jump it'll be really fun and everything will be okay. It takes a moment of logical thought to stop myself from doing it. Was just wondering if this is recognised in the medical community. Capuchin 13:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't find a medical term. Could you call it altitude euphoria, wooziness, altered state of consciousness for everyday purposes? You might be interested in The Ratchet Ride to the Ravine with someone else's musings about this phenomenon (with a disclaimer, stating its speculative nature) ---Sluzzelin talk 18:07, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, it certainly could be something to do with wooziness. It only happens when I can see the drop. I'll check out that link, Thank you. Capuchin 18:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Acrophobia? Sounds more like acrophilia! − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 22:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Let's not get carried away ;) Capuchin 10:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

According to Wiktionary [3], acrophilia is sexual arousal from heights or high altitudes (Hmm, I see where they're coming from ... sorry, I couldn't resist that). I was almost going to suggest acromania, but this says acromania is an obsession for high places; nothing about jumping off them as such. Acromania (also confusingly known as Acrophobia) is also an online game involving backronyms. JackofOz 10:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I used to play acrophobia too. Great game! Capuchin 11:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you have a subconcious desire to fly, like Superman or something. Is there a word for that? Dismas|^(talk) 17:13, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Insiliophilia? Volatiphilia? (Modified from Latin-English translations) − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 22:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

To counter some of the "wtf?" reactions, I often feel the same sort of urge. It also extends, for me, to things like subway platforms, though not as strongly. I have a friend who describes the same reaction to cliffs, tall buildings, etc. 75.3.125.27 05:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes! Subway platforms!! Any kind of drop really. I've really hurt my legs a few times jumping from high walls. Maybe I should look into parkour? Capuchin 10:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Came across a word for this today on a list of untranslatable words: L'appel du vide. It literally means "The call of the void" in French and figuratively is used to describe the instinct to jump from high places. ~~

As far as I can tell, this is a type of intrusive thought (there's a page here for Intrusive Thoughts). Ever be in a vehicle with the window down and have the sudden urge to chuck your phone/iPod out, despite that obviously being a stupid thing to do? Same thing.71.227.7.35 (talk) 03:14, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Names

How do you pronounce Benoit Mandelbrot's name? How do you pronounce Peano's name? Black Carrot 18:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The French pronunciation of "Benoît Mandelbrot" is [bənwa mɑ̃dɛlbʁo]. (I've inserted a space for the sake of clarity only.) Note in particular that the "t" is silent. For "Giuseppe Peano" we get [dʒuˌzɛpːe peˈano].  --Lambiam^Talk 19:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Latin as used by plebeians

Someone once said the Romans wouldn't have been able to conquer the world had they had to learn Latin first. This suggests that Latin, as currently taught in universities, is more complicated in grammar than any language a majority of Romans (at least in the army) could possibly have used. Does the surviving Roman writing by non-scholarly plebeians, if there is any, show looser or simpler grammar than what universities teach? NeonMerlin 23:39, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

First, I am not sure that the saying really implies that classical Latin grammar is more complicated than that of spoken Vulgar Latin. Rather, I think that the saying points out that the troops did not speak classical Latin and suggests that they did not have time to learn it. Classical Latin was merely a different variety of Latin than Vulgar Latin, a variety in a higher social register. Those who learned to write Latin (as opposed to illiterate peasants and foreigners who may have made up the bulk of troops) would have learned to write classical Latin, the standard written form, even if their native spoken language was Vulgar Latin. Vulgar Latin was not considered fit for written expression. If a Roman put Vulgar Latin forms into writing, they were likely judged not fit for copying and preserving for posterity. There are some hints of Vulgar Latin in grafitti that have survived, in written aids for learning classical Latin, and in the writing of very early Latin authors, such as Plautus, who wrote before classical Latin had crystallized as a form removed from the common spoken language. Vulgar Latin has been reconstructed by modern historical linguists mainly by extrapolating backward from recorded forms of the Romance languages. Marco polo 00:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

(After edit conflict: now redundant with some of what Marco polo said, in addition to being a bit long-winded on its own!) The question you ask is more complicated than it may appear, and I won't pretend to answer it adequately; I'm sure our resident linguists will have some helpful points to make. First, I take that quip to make the distinction between how people acquire their native language vs. a foreign language. But what about more vs. less educated Latin? Well, in any culture and period there must be more and less able and ambitious users of language; not everyone is a poet. And sometimes language for humble purposes is allowed liberties denied to more formal and specialized registers (though the reverse is also possible). But I worry that if we focus on these aspects we'll miss the real point, which is that you can be damn sure that highly-inflected languages of incredible syntactic complexity were and are spoken "properly" by people who don't know the rules they're obeying. I wish I knew more about the Latin spoken by Roman plebeians in 175 BC. But I feel safe saying that its morphology and grammatical rules in many cases would have followed rules (without any particular effort on the plebeians' part) that, when described in a grammar book, would be intimidatingly difficult to master. Now, once a language is fossilized into an established prestige/literary/classical form, even the natives may have to learn its grammar formally, and then you can be sure that the plebeians don't. This can happen at different paces with speech and writing. This is eventually the case with Latin vs. Vulgar Latin (and eventually the Romance languages). It's very interesting to see where "mistakes" are and aren't made in a given period. To me, the remarkable thing is how apparently impossible-to-mistake some of the most "difficult" grammatical principles were to the ancients. In a nutshell: maybe no plebeian ever turned out masterful Ciceronian periods, but at the right times & places the most humble native Latin-speaker was speaking a language whose "difficulty" would fully justify the quip. Wareh 00:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Your first sentence, Merlin, reminds me of a little rhyme we used to recite at school Latin is a language as dead as dead can be. It killed the poor old Romans, and now it's killing me. True, so very true! Clio the Muse 00:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

As our article Classical Latin states: What is now called "Classical Latin" was, in fact, a highly stylized and polished written literary language selectively constructed from early Latin, of which far fewer works remain. Classical Latin is the product of the reconstruction of early Latin in the prototype of Attic Greek. This is the Latin of writers like Cicero you (are supposed to) learn in school. As Wareh already wrote, the grammar and vocabulary of Latin as she was spoke in these days in the streets of Rome by plebeians was probably not in any way easier, but just different. But this probably equally applied to the language as spoken by patricians, even though they may have used a different register to distinguish themselves from the plebs. Julius Caesar's De Bello Gallico was probably meant to be an easy read, and is in any case much easier to read than Cicero's prose. Part of the reason may be that it uses a much more regular word order, which suggests that spoken Latin had a somewhat fixed word order.  --Lambiam^Talk 09:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

And you also have to look at where that pithy quote originated. The Romans would have learned Latin organically as their native language, but people today have to learn it by rote as a second language, and the grammar is different enough from that of English that students often come up against a wall when learning it. It's much easier to learn how a language is put together when you're extremely young, well before the age most students tackle Latin. Lambiam^Talk mentions De Bello Gallico - it should be pointed out that even such a severe critic of Julius Caesar as Cicero proclaimed his prose as among the best he had read.

Also, many Roman soldiers didn't speak Latin well at all. The lingua franca of southern Italy and Sicily in the time span between the Social Wars and the Antonines (and possibly later) was Greek, while armies raised in Gaul, Pannonia, Helvetia, Brittania, Dacia, etc., etc. probably conversed in their native languages. --Charlene 03:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)