Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 April 9

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April 9

How do you?

I want to know how to add different languages text, on my articles such as ,mandarin or cantonese (my speciality subjects) as i write for the english wikipedia,but would like to include language texts,to improve the level of information in my articles.

This is property not of Wikipedia but of your system and browser. On the other hand, if the things you want to add are already in existence in zh: or zh-yue: you can just copy and paste words and phrases from there. --ColinFine 21:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The term blue

Need to find a connection to the word blue via it's definitions. For example the word court can be a court of law, a basketball court, or to court an individual. With all of these you have boundaries, competition, you have rules, there is a code of behavior, I am wondering how to with the use of the word blue find some connections with its' definitions.68.237.12.156 00:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)≠

Well, this should help some. It gives a list of definitions, and explains at least how the "sad" meaning of "blue" came to be. -Elmer Clark 04:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Blue in human culture might help too, but I'm not totally sure I agree with the premise that the definitions of a word are going to necessarily have connections. Recury 20:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, the meanings of words often have historical connections, but not logical ones. I think your generalizations of "court" are after-the-fact rationalizations. IIRC, the original meaning of "court" was an enclosed space, echoed in the modern "courtyard" (see this. From this it was applied to groups or events that met in such a space, including the court of a ruler. Courts of law were originally specialized meetings of a ruler's court. "Courting" n the sense of romance, originally referred, I think, to the kind of romance that went on in noble courts (aka "courtly love") as opposed to in less socially elite circles. While a tennis or basketball court harks back to the original "enclosed space" meaning. The connections between these have, I think, nothing much to do with rules, competition, or codes of behavior. Similarly "shrewd" once meant "shrewish" or "malicious" but now means "clever" or "skilled". Following the history of words can be fascinating, but the connections are often completely unclear without the history, IMO. DES ^(talk) 18:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

What is this German word?

I remember correcting a German person at a conversation only to be met with a reply that sounds like "Act-zol!". Anyone know what it means? --JDitto 04:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Ach so – rather untranslatable (literally "Oh, thus"), but definitely an acknowledgement that they hear what you're saying, and do choose not to contradict you. In English you might say "I see" in the same circumstances.  --Lambiam^Talk 04:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

Ohhh, okay. Thanks Lambiam.--JDitto 05:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Which reminds me of a story. A German woman I know was in Canada visiting her cousin (who spoke no German). Although they spoke English together, little German phrases like ach so crept into her speech. She noticed her cousin looked increasingly uncomfortable, but she couldn't figure out why, until finally he asked in a very hurt tone of voice, "Why is it whenever I say anything, you call me an asshole?" —Angr 07:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought that was an urban myth, and something we VERY OFTEN joked about years ago in Japan, where the equivalent is, coincidentally, "Ah, so!". ScouseMouse - スカウサーUK! 00:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, maybe it is; I wasn't there in person myself. Still, she told it to me as something that had happened directly to her, not as something that happened to a friend of a friend of hers. —Angr 03:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Hahah, I imagine many things in German come across as insults to those who do not understand. Weiner schnitzel! − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 17:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Why do you single out German? Try saying "postalveolar fricative!" to a policeman. By the way, it's Wiener.  --Lambiam^Talk 18:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this a serious question? I singled out German because we are talking about German (See #What is this German word?). − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 21:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

There is a good story about a german officer trying to find his way to G6 div. in the UN base at Rheindalen! Anyone who knows the numbers/letters in german can extrapolate for themselves (Walking round a millitary base saying ,where can I find G6'). BTW I agree, it is Ach, so! MHDIV ɪŋglɪʃnɜː(r)d(Suggestion?|wanna chat?) 21:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Theater of Cruelty

In the commentary for the Interview with the Vampire DVD, they explain some background for the Theater of Vampires. Apparently, around that time in Paris there actually were theaters that specialized in the low-tech equivalent of horror movies and snuff films. The word they used for these theaters I couldn't quite understand, but it sounded like 'gongignole', and they translated it as Theater of Cruelty. Any idea what the word is? Black Carrot 06:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Grand Guignol. Tesseran 07:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Could perhaps also be a nod to Artaud's 'Theatre of Cruelty'. --Shirt58 11:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Translating a title into Japanese

My brother is making a video he wishes to title "Pretty Cherry Tree Forest" in Japanese. (I'm just hoping that the translation will include 桜 in it. :P ) My guess is that "cherry tree forest" would be something like 桜森 (sakura mori), but I'm clueless when it comes to describing the forest as being "pretty" (and I obviously don't know if my translation of "cherry tree forest" is correct; I don't speak a word of Japanese :P ).

I would greatly appreciate it if someone could translate Pretty Cherry Tree Forest into Japanese and give me the kanji and the rōmaji. Thank you! :D —OneofThem^(talk)_(contribs) 16:56, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

"可愛い桜の森" (kawaii sakura no mori) would be the best one, as far as I can see. Notice the addition of 'no' between 'sakura' and 'mori', adding to the rhythm. ScouseMouse - スカウサーUK! 00:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I laughed out loud when I saw this because I had just finished coming up with my own translation. I came up with 綺麗な桜の森 (Kirei na Sakura no Mori). Is that a possible alternative? I know of a j-pop song that uses kirei to describe a sky as being pretty, so I'm pretty sure that it's acceptable. The な (na) was added to convert the quasi-adjective kirei into an adjective, and the の (no) was obviously added to show possession regarding the forest. (Thank you, Wiktionary! If you're right, that is. :P) Thank you for the translation, by the way. :) —OneofThem^(talk)_(contribs) 01:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I would think "pretty" would be better represented as "kirei", not "kawaii", though I could be wrong. -Wooty Woot? contribs 01:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll take your word for it, seeing as your user page claims a ja-3, and I know from memory that kawaii more closely means "cute", and my guess it that it would probably be referring to a person (keeping in mind that I don't speak Japanese at all :P ). If I'm wrong regarding kawaii's usage, then at least I know that my translation is acceptable. :P

I thank you both very much! I may have come up with the translation myself, but you guys validated it. :) —OneofThem^(talk)_(contribs) 01:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't use kawaii very much (not a Japanese schoolgirl, sorry), but I was taught to use kirei for natural "pretty", "clean-looking", or "beautiful" things. Kawaii might be appropriate for a "cutesy" video or if the cherry trees are anthropomorphic. Anyway, you're welcome :) -Wooty Woot? contribs 05:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I knew that if I'd used "kawaii", somebody was bound to stand up and tell me I should have used "kirei" instead. As Wo rightly points out, "kirei" is better for naturally beautiful things, such as the sky, and indeed a forest, but "kawaii" can also be used for such things as cherry tree forests, as they are specifically there to please the eye, and using the word "kawaii" in this phrase would give a wider feeling of meaning, e.g. the cherry blossoms themselves. However, it's all just a matter of taste whether you wanted to use 'kawaii' or 'kirei', and there are plenty of other words that could have been used instead. ScouseMouse - スカウサーUK! 09:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

美しい (うつくしい, utsukushii - 'beautiful, lovely'), perhaps? Googles of "綺麗な桜の森" and "可愛い桜の森" get no hits, but "美しい桜の森" gets at least 10. --Shirt58 11:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

From English to German

What is the German term for a "mover"? That is, a person or company that moves furniture and household goods. For example, "United Van Lines is the largest mover in North America." 66.213.33.2 17:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... I'm going to go with Möbelspediteur. —Angr 17:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd also suggest Umzugsfirma for the company, and Möbelpacker or Packer for the person doing all the lifting necessary to move the furniture. Where I live, we call them Zügelmane, but that's hardly standard German. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh yes, der Möbelpacker from Wie die Karnickel. How could I have forgotten about him?! —Angr 03:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It may also be worth noting that "mover" is an American English term. In Britain, "mover" would get you blank looks; "removals firm" would be understood. Notinasnaid 09:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Why not "i" or "Me"?

Hi! Um, this might be a weird question to bring up, but I couldn't find the answers anywhere else, and I thought someone here might know. Why do we, (people who use the Latin alphabet) capitalize the nominative first person singular pronoun "I", but not the objective first person singular pronoun "me"? What was the motive, or was it just subconscious? (Also, since I added that bit about "users of the Latin alphabet" above, do other writing systems' grammar rules teach this? Plus, are there some Latin alphabetically based writing systems which don't do this?) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kaiilaiqualyn (talk • contribs) 18:12, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

The rule isn't about using the Latin alphabet, it's specific to English. In most (maybe all) other languages that use the Latin alphabet, the first person singular nominative pronoun is not capitalized (unless it's the first word of a sentence, etc.). I suspect the reason it's capitalized in English is because i is such a tiny little letter that's easily overlooked, a whole word that consists of nothing but that letter just doesn't have enough "body" unless it's capitalized. To answer your last question, all of the languages that use the Latin alphabet whose word for "I" I can think of off the top of my head do not capitalize it: German ich, Dutch ik, Danish jeg, French je, Spanish yo, Portuguese eu, Italian io, Irish mé, Scottish Gaelic mi, Welsh mi, and so on. —Angr 18:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the Welsh word for "I" is "i" (uncapitalized). "fi" (mi) means "me". You can also add Romanian "eu", Jèrriais "jé", and Finnish "minä" to your list. The Jade Knight 10:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

No I can't, because the list, as I said, was of "languages that use the Latin alphabet whose word for 'I' I can think of off the top of my head" (emphasis added). —Angr 17:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

In fact, many other languages capitalize the second person: especially the polite/formal pronoun (see T-V distinction); sometimes also the informal pronoun, especially in correspondence. jnestorius^(talk) 20:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

You will find some discussion on the history of I/Ich's capitalization in Middle English here, including a selected sample of manuscripts and their spelling. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Fascinating. I fear that in 25 years (or less), we'll no longer be capitalizing the I. It's already on the way out, if internet users have any say in the continuing evolution of our written language. And, like it or not, they do. -- JackofOz 00:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

They've gotten to you already, Jack. It's "Internet", with a capital I. Bhumiya (said/done) 01:40, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

since when  :) JackofOz 01:42, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

a better question perhaps is until when —Tamfang 02:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Only makes sense that "Internet" would lose its capitalization—students are criticized in English, generally, for capitalizing too much, not too little. The Jade Knight 10:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I know that many dictionaries capitalize "internet", but I've always been against it. It is a medium, like television or print, not really a proper noun. I will be happy when the dictionaries give up on the silly capitalized form! Marco polo 14:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Cool... that does make sense, Angr (also, thanks for correcting me!) I'm gonna go check out that link right now Sluzzelin! Thanks everyone! Kaiilaiqualyn 17:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It was, early on, considered a proper noun. "An intenet" was any network that joined smaller networks, "The Internet" was a specifc such network, the oen that grew out of ARPAnet. But since that oone has pretty much subsumed all other public internets, the distinction has become purely theoretical, and "the internet" has come to be regarded as a generic medium, hence not to be capitolized. DES ^(talk) 18:07, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

There are other words that are capitalized when refering to a specific one, yet lower-cased for the generic term. For example, consider a holocaust vs. the Holocaust, or a moon vs. the Moon. — Michael J 01:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

English to Chinese

Could some kind RD denizen tell me what the Chinese translaton of "Golden Dragon" would be, both written and pronounced, in Mandarin and Cantonese? Thank you. Corvus cornix 18:25, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

"Golden Dragon" is "金龍". The pronunciation is "Jin Long" ('long' is pronounced 'lung') in Mandarin and "Kin Lung" in Cantonese. ScouseMouse - スカウサーUK! 00:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

should be approximately "gum lung" ("gum" as in "chewing gum", but voiceless) in Cantonese. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 01:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you. Corvus cornix 17:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Antonia Ax:son Johnson

What is the deal with the colon? Is this common in Swedish names? Recury 20:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

It's probably just a misprint or something. It is definitely not a normal part of Swedish names. ScouseMouse - スカウサーUK! 00:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about that. Björn J:son Lindh and Georg J:son Karlin both have colons in their names. It seems to be a way of indicating an abbreviation. —Angr 03:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

So if J:son is Johansson, then Ax:son is presumably Axelsson. --Anon, April 10, 2007, 04:25 (UTC).

The first sentence of the article calls her "Antonia Margaret Axelson Johnson". JackofOz 04:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

A Google search turns up plenty with the colon, though. Perhaps it is a pronunciation marker or an abbreviation like noted above (like "pedestrian xing") -Wooty Woot? contribs 05:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

According to our article, the colon is sometimes employed in Finnish and Swedish in the same way that an apostrophe is used in English. Bhumiya (said/done) 05:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, in the same way, "d:o" is "ditto", "n:r" or "n:o" are "no.", and "s:t" is "saint". ScouseMouse - スカウサーUK! 18:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

That sort of brings up a good point. How do you know what they are abbreviating? J:son could be Johansson or Johnsson or Jonsson. Or maybe it can't... Recury 20:13, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I expect it's simply convention, and a particular abbreviation is only used for one, common, name. Compare the ancient Roman habit of abbreviating the most common praenomina. FiggyBee 08:56, 11 April 2007 (UTC)