Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 March 28

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March 28

Can someone with better language skills please interwiki this article to the greek WP?

I'd do it but it's all greek to me. SS_Heraklion edit the article and take out the hand-made link too, please, it's in there as a TODO item. Sorry for asking here but it's minor, and I didn't have a better place to ask. Thanks. dr.ef.tymac 03:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Done, along with much (!) proofreading. For future reference, I simply put

  [[el:Ηράκλειον (Ε/Γ-Ο/Γ)]]

The el is the code for the Greek (Hellenic) Wikipedia (el.wikipedia.org), and the part that was "all Greek" to you I simply copied from the page that was linked—it wasn't actually as ugly and full of %CE%97%CF%81%CE%AC%CE%BA%CE%AHHHH%HHHH%!!!% as it seemed. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 05:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

(Applause) Not only did you WP:IW the article, but you did a whole rack of other needed changes that I was too tired to even consider, let alone complete. That was much more than "minor" work for such a small article. Kudos. dr.ef.tymac 14:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

English anagrams

What english word has the most anagrams that are also valid English Words? Anagram mentions "paternal" with 2 other words. I know of Live/Vile/veil/evil. Anything more than this 4 way? -- SGBailey 06:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Here are 14 which appear in Webster's: "anestri, asterin, eranist, nastier, ratines, resiant, restain, retains, retinas, retsina, sainter, stainer, starnie, stearin" from [1] − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 07:07, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - Though I hate it when words that noone ever uses are offered as solutions. Of those 14, I would reduce the list to only "nastier, restain, retains, retinas, stainer". -- SGBailey 07:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

• But retsina is a lovely drink hotclaws**== 08:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

You've thrown in an arbitrary, subjective judgement: the condition that, by your own estimate, the word must be used often. This condition makes the question very difficult to answer, since different people will tend to use words depending on their location, occupation, education, etc. I imagine many molecular biologists say "stearin" often enough. Anyway, my point is we can't know which words are acceptable to you, so that criteria is kind of wonky. Do people continue providing you lists, and you continue whittling them down to ones you accept? (Bleh, I'm not trying to be aggravating but I am tired.) − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 08:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

While it's true that limiting us to common words is subjective, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Most dictionaries are abridged, and those that claim not to be still don't have every word ever used in English, such as technical jargon. StuRat 17:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

It would be fairly straightforward for someone with Perl skills to take a frequency list (e.g. wikt:Wiktionary:Frequency lists, BNC per million; BNC raw) and find for $n=4,5,6,...$ the group of $n$ anagrams with highest lowest frequency; SGBailey and likeminded persons could simply choose the highest $n$ they felt comfortable with. Any volunteers :) ? jnestorius^(talk) 21:21, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll hack together a script right away, right after I have debugging completed automated my answering script RefDesk Wikipedia ]]Perl[[ scritp. dr.ef.tymac 21:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

In the list of 5 above, they are the only ones from the list of 14 that I've ever heard/used. The other 9 I have never come across. I know it is a personal thing, but although they may be valid English words, when I've never even heard of them it is hard to , hmm, enjoy(?) them. -- SGBailey 23:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

While I have never seen the words 'restain' or 'stainer' used but have spoken of, read of and drunk retsina. So it goes. Algebraist 01:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

If the stainer retains his retsina, a nastier restain could result, offending my eyes to their very retinas. StuRat 02:39, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Name of a structure

"Le style, c'est l'homme." Hello, can you tell me is there a name for this kind of sentence structure (not necessarily in French, but also in other Indo-european languages)? Double subjects? Thanks a lot.--K.C. Tang 06:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

It's similar to cleft constructions (like "It's money that I love"), and the name's on the tip of my tongue, but...Oh! Dislocation! --Miskwito 07:14, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! So are there any other Indo-european languages which employ dislocation frequently, besides French?--K.C. Tang 07:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

English? Skittle 22:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess all the Indo-european languages would employ "dislocation" from time to time (it's only natural after all), but only in colloquial contexts, not in format writings. So I wonder if French is the only (glaring) exception.--K.C. Tang 02:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

According to the article, the use in French is also colloquial, not formal. Skittle 11:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure of the colloquial-formal boundary, but I come across the structure in writings not infrequently... maybe some French speaker can clarify this point.--K.C. Tang 01:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Mon cœur déçu: a French grammar/spell check

I am somewhat familiar with the French language, but by no means am I an expert. Could someone tell me if the following sentence is grammatically sound (consistent verb tense, proper gender and articles, conjugation, vocabulary):

Mon cœur déçu mais mon âme plutôt naïve, j'ai rêvé de crapaüter en canoë au delà des îles, près du mälström où brûlent les novæ.

I have modified it (to be more personal) from a version previously found at the article "pangram". Thanks! − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 08:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

What's the English you're trying to represent? The Jade Knight 01:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

According to the link, it was "His heart disappointed, but his soul rather naive, Louÿs dreamt of trekking in a canoe beyond the isles, close to the maelstrom where the novas burn" but I have converted it to say "My heart disappointed, but my soul rather naive, I dreamt of trekking in a canoe beyond the isles, close to the maelstrom where the novas burn." − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 22:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Le cœur déçu mais l'âme plutôt naïve, j'ai rêvé de crapaüter en canoë au delà des îles, près du mälström où brûlent les novæ. sounds better for a French. It is not easy to explain the rule ("le" instead of "mon", see Le bon usage by Grevisse et Goosse). Note that it is no longer a French pangram with diacritical marks (the letter ÿ, although very rare in French, is missing) 11:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)195.33.65.134

Thank you. I wanted to keep the "le"'s since they sounded better, but didn't think it was proper. I removed it from the pangram article long ago because there is no 'z'. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 22:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Reading

How can I read any book in wikipedia?

If there is an online text freely available, an external link may often be found at the end of the article on the author or the book. Also, the sister project Wikisource is dedicated to providing online books, etc. Wareh 14:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, if you're interested in reading online books, check out Project Gutenberg. StuRat 17:37, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The color of magic

Hi, I am writing a fantasy novel associated with the "color of magic" and for the life of me, the most difficult thing about writing is thinking up medieval/gothic/mystical-sounding names of people and places. There is this character who is associated with "orange magic" - could someone help with some name suggestions? For example, I have called the blue wizard "Azurean". In addition, there is this important city high up in the "Dur'grande" mountains, shrouded in mist, built by the original mountain inhabitants aeons ago... any suggestions please? "Misthaven" is ideal, but really is an abused name in the fantasy genre. Thank you all and sorry for the "un-encyclopedic" question. Sandman30s 09:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

• You could call the orange character Bill. —Angr 09:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Jokes aside, the orange wizard is female. Orange is a funny word without any significant latin roots or stems, unless someone knows something otherwise. Ochre is the closest shade I could find. "Ocharina" does not sound appealing. Neither does "Oranja", for a fantasy book. Sandman30s 12:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I realise this may be stating the obvious, but are you aware there is already a well-known fantasy novel called The Colour of Magic? FiggyBee 12:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes I am aware of Terry Pratchett's novel. My concepts are radically different but I would not like to reveal my plot at this stage. Like I said there is an "association" with magical color. Thanks for the hint though :) A rather large worry of mine is not to be accused of plagiarism. Sandman30s 12:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

If plagiarism or duplication of color associations is a concern, you might also benefit from exploring Piers Anthony's fantasy/sci fi series Apprentice Adept, which features a set of powerful adept magicians, each of which is named for a color, and each of which generates magic in a manner associated with that color. Jfarber 14:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for this, I was not aware of that series. Thankfully my concept is still hugely different. Sandman30s 15:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe something reminiscent of gold (oranges were formerly called "golden apples")? Like Golda or Chryseis or something? —Angr 13:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Gold will not quite fit the context of my plot. It has to be a shade of orange in the light spectrum. Sandman30s 15:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, take a look at Category:Shades of orange, maybe something will occur to you. I suppose naming her Tangerina would be a little too slapstick for your purposes. —Angr 15:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Didn't think wikipedia went this far... I am continually amazed at its depth! Let's see - Amber (too corny), Salmon (Salmonella - good heavens), Vermilion (??), Tenné... I wonder if Tenné can pass as a grandiose, lofty name of a witch-queen? Sandman30s 09:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it sounds good...the connection with the color orange is a little obscure, so it doesn't slap the reader in the face with its obviousness (the way Tangerina would), but for readers who know what tenné is, they'll appreciate the allusion. —Angr 10:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

How about Naranje? Corvus cornix 19:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Vi Tamancy? (I prefer Mrs. Peel myself.) Clarityfiend 20:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Daucus? Aurora? The last would reference the dawn, and gold, leading to a glowy/orangey feel perhaps... Skittle 22:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Aurora sounds good! But a little too reminiscent of Storm in x-men? Sandman30s 09:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

• varients on Tangerine or Satsuma?hotclaws**== 08:58, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Any suggestions on the city's name? Sandman30s 09:32, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Something Celtic-sounding perhaps? Ceo liath is Irish for "gray fog"; "Ceoliath" sounds nice and fantasyish. —Angr 10:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding fussy, I am trying to stay away from the tolkienesque style of fantasy... and I wouldn't know how to pronounce that anyway :) Sandman30s 14:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

When I write my bestselling fantasy trilogy, rather than waste time inventing languages, I'm just going to use real ones. The elves will speak Swahili, the dwarves Sanskrit and the dragons Aymara. Except that in the Swahili translation, the elves will speak Icelandic. jnestorius^(talk) 21:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually Aurora sounds really appealing right now. Named after the goddess of dawn, which fits the colour spectrum at least :) Thanks everyone! Sandman30s 11:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Be advised that "[Princess] Aurora" is widely associated with the title character of Sleeping Beauty, more so than with the Goddess of Dawn. If this is true for your target readership, it may be obtrusive to the point of disrupting the effect you intend to achieve with the choice of name. -- Deborahjay 18:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, for how many people is that true? Maybe a ballet buff, or someone who's watched Disney's Sleeping Beauty too many times :-) I've encountered it used in quite a lot of places in direct reference to the dawn, or the goddess of the dawn, and never (outside ballet and Disney) to refer to Sleeping Beauty. Skittle 11:15, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

It has suddenly struck me - Tawné - as a hybrid of Tenné and Tawny. Tawné has enough of a gothic sound to it as well. I think I will stick with that. Sandman30s 08:43, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

A foodstuff in Slovak

An e-colleague is curious as to the meaning in English of ERCE 8 Vajecne Cestoviny that appears on a packaged food item from Slovakia. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 16:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I tried searching images.google.com and it looks to me like it is either a type of pasta [2] [3] or a major ingredient of pasta; perhaps durum? --Mathew5000 19:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it means "egg noodles". At any rate sk:Vaječník is linked to Ovary. —Angr 19:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I figured it out by searching the online EU legal documents -- a modern Rosetta Stone! The document http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/lex/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:52005XC0223(02):SK:HTML contains the phrase, and you get the English translation by just replacing SK with EN in the URL. The following line in Slovak:

• 1871: | K firme Scheurer pribudlo asi pätnásť ďalších firiem. Alsasko sa rýchlo stáva hlavným regiónom nemeckej ríše vyrábajúcim vaječné cestoviny. |

appears in the English version of the document as:

• 1871: | another 15 establishments join Scheurer. Alsace soon becomes the main region for producing egg-pasta in the German Reich. |

As for "ERCE 8", it seems to be the name of a certain company that produces egg pasta: www.erce.sk. Maybe it means that they use eight eggs to make the pasta? --Mathew5000 19:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Lonesome, On'ry and Mean

Hi, Does anyone here know what "On'ry" means? Internet searches only turn up references to the song. Thanks very much for your help! Bioarchie1234 17:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Short for ornery. Wareh 17:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

And ornery is dialect for ordinary, a nicely understated synonym for mean (nasty), which is a homonym of mean (average), hence ordinary. In other words, it was a play on words from the get-go. People have always played with language. Dmargulis 17:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I've always wanted to know whether what Waylon was singing was a "nice" word! Bioarchie1234 17:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

For an example of the word "ornery" used to mean "ordinary", see I Wonder as I Wander. —Angr 17:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Your reference uses orn'ry, not on'ry. Are you folk sure your replies apply to on'ry? -- SGBailey 11:50, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

In a non-rhotic accent, orn'ry is pronounced on'ry. —Angr 12:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

translation

Hello Im looking for someone who speaks japanese to help me translate a letter. The letter is on a picture of Mount Fuji. Its written in Japanese. I would like to see if it says the name of the artist. I was told the picture is of museum quality. Thanks Eric —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.19.14.34 (talk) 22:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

Could you upload a good quality scan? 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * 23:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Possessive

Would the possessive of United States be United States's or United States' ? Because of the use of sentences such as "The United States is..." I would think the possessive be United States's, but Microsoft Word's grammar check highlights it as being incorrect. Could this be clarified? Thegreenj 23:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The possessive of names ending in -s can be either -s's or -s'. Apostrophe#Possessive forms of nouns ending in s has some good information about this general question. I see your dilemma here though: does States become States' because States is plural; or is United States to be viewed as a single entity, and therefore become United States's? There's a third option: no apostrophe at all, eg. the United States government. But that wouldn't seem to apply in the United States position on this issue is .... There, I would write States's. I'm not sure if this makes it any clearer, or only confuses you. JackofOz 23:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

In this case I am refering to the United States as a country rather than a group of states. The rule given in the apostrophe article seems rather hazy, but I am now fairly certain that United States's can be considered correct usage. As long as this is not considered outright wrong, I think that it will do. Thank you for your help. Thegreenj 00:41, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It might be best to avoid it entirely. Just go with "...of the United States" or, provided the context is clear enough to avoid ambiguity, "American." -Elmer Clark 02:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Or in an informal context, "the USA's" or "the US's". --Anonymous, March 29, 2007, 02:36 (UTC).

Chicago Manual of Style, 15th ed., 7.19. Nouns plural in form, singular in meaning. When the singular form of a noun ending in s looks like a plural and the plural form is the same as the singular, the possessive of both singular and plural is formed by the addition of an apostrophe only. If ambiguity threatens, use of to avoid the possessive . . . The same rule applies when the name of a place or an organization (or the last element in the name) is a plural form ending in s, such as the United States, even though the entity is singular.

the United States' role in international law —Wayward ^Talk 07:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)