Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 August 13

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August 13

Colloquial phrase

Is there a colloquial English phrase that is used when a man carelessly sits down to fast and inadvertently squashes his plums causing pain? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.184.142 (talk) 01:35, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know that one, but if a Roman emperor sat on his laurel wreath he could be said "to be resting on his laurels".  :) (Also, why would he have fruit in his vicinity if he was fasting, and why would he need to sit down to do so?) -- JackofOz (talk) 02:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

We should have an article on Food metaphors for testicles. I've heard "nuts", of course, and "eggs" in languages like German and Navajo, but I've never heard them called "plums" before. I like it. —Angr 04:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Unless they were unusually large, sitting on them would be pretty difficult given their location. As for a list of metaphoric synonyms, see Wikisaurus:testicles. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 04:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

You never heard of low hanging fruit? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.249.21 (talk) 04:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, NOW I see. "sits down to [sic] fast" really threw me off track here. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:35, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I thought you were joking, Jack. I was actually laughing out loud at that last comment. I thought, "Damn! He beat me to it!".--ChokinBako (talk) 10:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

If he hadn't mentioned plums (which was unknown to me as a term for testicles, and apparently most others on the desk), my brain wouldn't have made a false connection between eating (fruit) and fasting. I think my confusion is reasonable under the circumstances. If others read between the lines immediately, 10 points to them for perspicacity; but then, my mind generally dwells on higher matters. (*cough*) I'll use this sentence in my next lesson about the use of to, too and two, to illustrate how things can go badly wrong with the wrong choice of word. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

"Plums" is an everyday term for knackers or goolies in Britain. DuncanHill (talk) 00:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Nihonjoe, it's possible. Trust me, I know from experience. :-( —Angr 05:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you bragging again, Angr?  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 06:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I've done it myself, too, a fair number of times. When you sit down with a client it can be doubly embarrassing as they notice your facial expression.--ChokinBako (talk) 10:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention your attempts to subtly rectify the situation. I'm afraid we're not really supplying the OP with an answer to his question, though. —Angr 10:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Careful, the bench might tumble if two were to sit too fast and if the bench was located under a plum tree well... I suppose it could be called "having had one too many" -hydnjo talk 11:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

If a man who had done this very violently and caused severe injury to himself, would such a man be said to be playing with his ball, rather than his balls, as my manager very often seems to be doing when processing holiday requests?ChokinBako (talk) 16:00, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I suppose the following sayings could be invented (if they do not already exist):

• Ohh I just Crushed my nuts
• Ahh I just Scrambled my eggs (tho I never heard em called eggs)
• Ow I just Squashed my plums

--79.76.229.54 (talk) 19:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

• "I've knackerd me knackers!" DuncanHill (talk) 00:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

After slowly thinking about the implications of "sits down to fast", decided it was "too fast" but y'all knew that. Yes, I missed the JackOz stuff... time to eat something for the brain. :) Julia Rossi (talk) 00:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Rocky Mountain oysters, perchance? —Angr 17:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Gordon Ramsay's next challenge: Come up with a tasty (or "testy" in his Scot-speak) dish in 15 minutes using only plums, eggs, nuts and oysters. (yerchh) -- JackofOz (talk) 08:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Surely everyone knows that great British sitcom, Oooh Me Plums! (as made famous by Tony Martin). Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 04:15, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

issue of quantum

mooved to the science desk here[1] Julia Rossi (talk) 00:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC) moved back to the language desk DuncanHill (talk) 01:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

what is meant buy "issue of quantum" Barryontherun (talk) 03:00, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean quantum programming language, internet technologies, communications or theory? And do you want to be on the science desk, computer desk, or here? Julia Rossi (talk) 03:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Will it make sense if you replace "issue of quantum" with "issue of size" or "issue of amount"? If so, that's probably it. If not, please provide more context. Also see this. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps something to do with the wave-particle duality. Strad (talk) 17:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The below is an explanation by the original poster, which he mistakenly posted on a usertalk archive. I am copying it here to help editors respond to his question

issue of quantum

"issue of quantum" as used in law regarding multiple jurisdiction....... possibly from the concept in physics about particles moving rapidly through and existing in different dimensions at the same time............ I just like the way it sounds........ planning on using it in everyday speech to impress......

Barryontherun (talk) 04:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

DuncanHill (talk) 00:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I think in a legal context it means quantum meruit. Nothing to do with physics except they use the same Latin word. The word "quantum" seems also to be used in a legal context to just refer to "an amount", which is again in keeping with the Latin. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 01:13, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Lover of phonetics

Is there a word for someone who loves phonetics? Would it be "phonophile"? Or something else? Kaiilaiqualyn (talk) 05:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

"Phonophile" would basically mean a lover of sound... AnonMoos (talk) 06:04, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

"Phonetiphile?" --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 01:11, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Latin translation

Hy there. I'm looking for a Latin phrase which tells more or less the following: "It is Greek, and it isn't read". AFAIK it comes from the middle ages when monks where making copies and translations of ancient texts, and being ignorant of Greek invented this sentence/poverb. Much obliged. Flamarande (talk) 10:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Found it: Graecum est; non potest legi (It is Greek; it cannot be read). I was using the wrong key words in Google. Flamarande (talk) 10:35, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I remember that this occurs in Hugo's Notre Dame de Paris, when the evil Frollo is lamenting the decline in classical learning. He deplores the fact that when a Greek phrase is met with, the reader typically passes over it, muttering 'Graecum est, non legitur' (ie 'It is Greek, one doesn't read it'). This is slightly better than 'non potest legi' ('it cannot be read').Maid Marion (talk) 14:00, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

well, it's all Greek to me. DuncanHill (talk) 14:03, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The Spectator, number 245 (December, 1711), says of Graecum est, non potest legi:

This passed into a proverb from Franciscus Accursius, a famous Jurisconsult and son of another Accursius, who was called the Idol of the Jurisconsults. Franciscus Accursius was a learned man of the 13th century, who, in expounding Justinian, whenever he came to one of Justinian's quotations from Homer, said Graecum est, nec potest legi. Afterwards, in the first days of the revival of Greek studies in Europe, it was often said, as reported by Claude d'Espence, for example, that to know anything of Greek made a man suspected, to know anything of Hebrew almost made him a heretic.

— OtherDave (talk) 11:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Miljan Mrdaković

Hi, how do you pronounce Miljan Mrdaković in Serbian? --Kjoonlee 11:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The segments are [miʎan mr̩dakovitɕ]. (The last name is four syllables, the first one having a syllabic [r] as its syllable peak.) Someone else will have to help you with vowel length and pitch accent. —Angr 11:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

English Grammar

Hy guys, do you know some english grammar similar to "Advanced Grammar in Use" by Martin Hewings ( http://www.ibs.it/book/9780521532914/hewings-martin/advanced-grammar-use.html )

Common Errors in English -- Wavelength (talk) 14:16, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Persian translation

I'm doing a translation of an article from Turkish into English. The article is concerned with poets from the 14th-century Germiyan beylik. Anyhow, there are a number of extracts from poems in the article, and these are in Turkish.

However, Ottoman and pre-Ottoman poets in Turkey typically used Persian, not Turkish, for the headings or titles of the different sections of long poems such as mesnevis, and one of these headings is quoted in the article I'm translating. It's in the modern Turkish alphabet in the article, of course, but in the Arabo-Persian script it would be this:

صفات بهار و مجلس عشرت ساختن خسرو با شيرين

I'm still learning Persian myself (I'd say I'm about early intermediate or so), so I know all the words there, no problem. However, I'm still not very good on the subject of long infinitives like ساختن and exactly how they interact with all the elements around them, so that ساختن is confusing me there a bit (along with a couple of other things).

Anyhow, to cut an already long story short, could anyone clarify the (more or less exact) meaning of this heading for me? I would appreciate any help very much. —Saposcat (talk) 13:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

ساختن is 'to make'. مجلس عشرت ساختن is a verbal group, meaning 'to make (to arrange) the feast of love'. Altogether the phrase means: the traits of spring and the picture of Khosro arranging the feast of love with Shirin (who is his sweetheart). --Omidinist (talk) 15:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

name of an english tense

What is the name of the (usually irritating) tense that runs: Fred would (later) become King of England, ie. using the conditional as a kind of "future past," and why is it so awfully common on Wikipedia? Is there a wikiproject to try and extirpate it? It's been emotional (talk) 16:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

"Future in the past". Jolly useful it is too. DuncanHill (talk) 16:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe it is a type of Pluperfect tense or something close to it. Perfect tense. It is discribed as something that happens after something else in the past. However, the article on Grammatical tense does not include this tense. Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 17:36, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I've heard it call past-future perfect because it is future perfect relative to the subject but occurs in the past for the reader. Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 04:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar, OUP, 1994, page 166 "Future in the past: A tense that from a time in the past looks towards its own future. Traditionally this label is given to a certain type of verb phrase containing the word would such as: "They doid not realize then that by 1914 the two countries would be at war"." DuncanHill (talk) 18:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but I think what the OP is talking about is the use of the conditional in contexts where the simple past would be sufficient, as in his example sentence "Fred would (later) become King of England", which could be re-phrased "Fred (later) became King of England" without any change in meaning. —Angr 18:56, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd call it "This Is Your Life tense", "ET tense", or "Hollywood tense". It makes its way into TV shows where events in a person's life are mentioned chronologically. They start out with "She was born in ... on ..." (not "she would be born ..") but from that point on it's fair game ("and would attend ABC college. Her parents would divorce when she was 9. She went to live with her grandparents, who would abuse her - financially, sexually and constitutionally. In 1981, she would move to NY City looking for success as a school librarian, but she would find only love and marriage, so she considered her trip a failure and would try to kill herself every morning when she woke up to the sound of 7 screaming babies. But even that would prove to be a failure. It was at her darkest personal nadir that her greatest triumph would happen. She would be plucked from utter obscurity, without so much as a day's acting training and having never expressed any interest in the theatre or movies (she hardly ever even went to the movies because of her extreme short-sightedness which required her to wear inch-thick glasses, which would give her neck an odd shape and her face a permanent frown as she would struggle with the effort of keeping her head upright under the weight of her glasses) - to star as Scarlett O'Hara in the James Cameron/Steven Spielberg/George Lucas remake of Gone With the Wind", and so on). Because many of WP's articles relating to popular culture are written in various forms of journalese (in many cases the only literary genre the editors have ever apparently had exposure to), they often come out this way because the editors think that's a good way to write. Well, if the "professionals" write this way, it must be good writing, mustn't it. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the "future in the past" is best used when you're not writing entirely chronologically. You might say (to make up a hypothetical example) "In 1914 Joe Bloggs joined the army. He was soon promoted, and would eventually reach the rank of sergeant major. He wrote a series of poems about life in the trenches, which he published after the war ended." You get to talk about the progress of his army career and his poetry separately, even though they happened simultaneously, and avoid implying that he wrote all his poems after he was promoted to sergeant major. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for those answers. Jack, you are eminently quotable: "This is Your Life tense," I'll borrow that one. But I think I'll go with the much drier Oxford style, and stick with Nicknack's very useful advice on how to use it. It's been emotional (talk) 18:02, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

You would be welcome. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

what is the persian (farsi) word for philosopher?

Hi, I was reading a book from my religion (Baha'i Faith) and I found a reference to "philosophers." The book was originally in Persian, so I'm wondering what the original word might have been. Does anyone know what the possibilities are, and given the words, what the possible alternative translations into English could be? My interpretation theologically depends on this, so I'm trying to dig up as much detail as possible. Thanks, It's been emotional (talk) 16:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The Arabic word for "philosophy" is falsafa, and the Farsi interwiki on the Philosophy article is the same fa:فلسفه... AnonMoos (talk) 17:01, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

In persian, philosopher is filsuf (فیلسوف). --Omidinist (talk) 18:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

anglicization or simply typo?

The article says anglicization happens into a more comprehensible English for an English speaker. As a German language native, I can understand that Munich is easier than München, or Moscow for Moskwa (we say Moskau too, mind you). But I never understood the use of Hapsburg for Habsburg, it looks quite ridiculous for a native. Are there other examples for the b -> p change? I think it is a widespread typo. What references are there for stating that it is an anglicization? --Ayacop (talk) 17:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Hapsburg is a lot easier for English-speaking lips than Habsburg. DuncanHill (talk) 17:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

If it comes to that, German-speaking lips pronounce it with a [p] sound too. —Angr 17:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The difference in the German pronunciation between Habs and Haps is simply the length of the 'a', with Haps being the same way pronounced as Happs. How would an English-speaker then pronounce Habsburg? --Ayacop (talk) 17:43, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

We would pronounce it Hapsburg. DuncanHill (talk) 17:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah. What's then the difficulty for English-speaking lips you talk about, above? Inquiring minds want to know. --Ayacop (talk) 17:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

If I didn't know German and encountered the word "Habsburg" I'd probably pronounce it [ˈhæbzbɝg]. But since it's difficult to maintain voicing across so many obstruents, that pronunciation would probably easily degrade to [ˈhæpsbɝg]. —Angr 18:01, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think that most English speakers would struggle to pronounce "Habsburg" [ˈhæbzbɝg] and not [ˈhæpsbɝg]. I know that English orthography involves lots of odd sound-symbol correspondences, but b-> p is not one of them. While today English proper nouns are rendered in their original English form in German, this is only because almost all German speakers have studied English in school, and German writers can assume that their audience knows how to pronounce English names. This is not necessarily the case for German names in English, since few English speakers study German in school, nor has this always been the case for English names in German. Just today there was a question on the German Reference Desk about the historic German spelling of San Franzisko for San Francisco. Marco polo (talk) 20:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

What looks ridiculous to a native is hardly limited to English versions of German words. I don't know German, but in terms of French, many English speakers would not recognize Edimbourg as Edinburgh or Tamise as the Thames. I don't know that anglicization makes things "more comprehensible" so much as "easier." Once a notion gets embedded, it's hard to root out -- as in the case of "the Ukraine," a finally-fading term for a country whose language has no word for "the." — OtherDave (talk) 22:05, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The phonological principle involved is voicing assimilation. The s in Hapsburg is interpreted as voiceless in English (i.e. as [s]). Because of that, the previous phoneme was interpreted as voiceless - i.e. [p] rather than [b]. Steewi (talk) 01:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that's the same thing that happens in hamster, which is almost unfailingly pronounced hampster. DuncanHill (talk) 01:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Millions of similar examples. Unless the speaker is taking particular care, Canberra comes out as "Cambra", compact disc becomes "compack disc", and so on. But with Habsburg, it's hard to pronounce it as written even when you're trying. Offhand, I can't think of any English word that contains 3 consecutive voiced consonants, so we don't get any practice. My father had trouble with the word "statistics" - it always came out as "sdadistics". Imagine his plight if he had to say "the Habsburg statistics". -- JackofOz (talk) 07:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Helmsman? I have to slow down to half speed to get over those middle letters. --Heron (talk) 12:46, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Japanese

How would you say "eraser's corner" in Japanese? I know "keshigomu" is eraser... Thanks in advance. 92.80.48.39 (talk) 19:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

As in the corner of an eraser? Or is this a specific idiom I am unaware of? '消しゴムの先' (keshigomu no saki) or 'エレーザーの先' (eraser no saki), literally 'the end of the eraser' would normally suffice.--ChokinBako (talk) 20:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

What would something that sounds like "keshigomu karote" mean? 92.80.48.39 (talk) 21:26, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

'karite' means 'borrow'. Some children in Japan use 'karite' (borrow) instead of 'kashite' (lend), just like some people in English mix the two up. So, I would assume the child is trying to say 'lend me your eraser'.--ChokinBako (talk) 13:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd say '消しゴムの角' (keshigomu no kado). Oda Mari (talk) 08:39, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

This is an eraser caled 'カドケシ' (kadokeshi). It has 28 edges and the page says it's easy to erase small parts. Oda Mari (talk) 08:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking of 'kado', but it just sounded funny. I've never heard it before and it sounded too specific, if that is ever possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Givnan (talk • contribs) 16:46, 15 August 2008 (UTC)