Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 August 6

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August 6

Can't be arsed/assed

Where does this unpleasant english phrase come from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.159.153 (talk) 00:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yep, it is crude. Here[1] it's used by seriously demotivated people who lazily shorten the phrase from "Can't be bothered to get of my arse... (to do something, fix something, ...)" -- likewise in the sense of being unwilling and there's a pun with "Can't be asked" (so why would you?). As some would say, it's a "No." As to its origins, I don't know. Julia Rossi (talk) 06:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Just hypothesising here, in a cheeky kind of way. Could it have some connection with "half-arsed"? Someone who does something in an unsatisfactory or inadequate manner is said to be guilty of doing it half-arsed. Maybe it has to do with their lack of motivation or energy, or maybe it's just plain laziness. Could it be that when they get so unmotivated that they can't bothered to do it at all, they go the whole hog (rump?) from half-arsed to arsed? Thinking laterally, might "half-arsed" also be related to going off "half-cocked"? And why is a person who does something well not said to have done it "cocked"? -- JackofOz (talk) 08:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Because at that point it's considered to be "at full cock (of a gun) with the cock lifted to the position at which the trigger will act". So it looks like being unprepared is worth more notice that someone who just gets the job done. Julia Rossi (talk) 10:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes I think I know this one. A half cocked gun (flintlock variety) is unlikely to ignite the gunpowder properly and maybe give a slow burn therefore not doing the job properly. But I just cant be arsed to find any refs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.158.184 (talk) 13:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Half-cocked is the loaded safety position of a flintlock. If it goes off at half cock the weapon has dangerously malfunctioned when you were not expecting it. So "to act prematurely or without reflection or too soon".(WordNet) Rmhermen (talk) 13:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Believe it or not the term arsed has been around for at least a millennium. The OED lists early forms appearing as early as c.1000. It is now used as (near exclusively course) slang and means "having an arse. (Chiefly in comb.) Usu. as a terminal element: half-arsed, smart-arsed, etc." Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 16:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Whilst I can easily believe the term 'arse' has been in use for over 1000 years, and that 'arsed' means having an arse; but why does 'cant be arsed' mean cant be botherd? Can anyone be arsed to give a proper answer?

I do believe Julia Rossi gave you an answer above. Can't you be arsed to read it? Corvus cornix_talk 18:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Arsed means terminal (ie end or short, often prematurely) thus to say "can't be arsed" can translate "can't be bothered" because literally you are saying can't bring to an end. Omahapubliclibrary (talk) 22:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm really sorry, but I cant accept any of the above explanations because they do not ring true to me, but I cant be arsed to ask anything further on the subject. thank all respondents anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.167.200 (talk) 23:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

You might not necessarily believe it, but I do believe that JackOfOz does have the correct answer: it's common practice to insert a taboo word in tongue-in-cheek fashion into a new phrase (I can name a few if you'd really like). You might like to know that I live in America, and I have never heard this phrase. On a separate matter: can anyone comment on the word "arse" for me? I never even knew this word existed until I went to Britain 7 years ago. How long has it been around? Did it disappear from America, or did it crop up from "ass" in the UK? (the latter possibility seems more likely to me). Magog the Ogre (talk) 23:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

It might be an example of Schnitzel Syndrome (my term for a word that's mispronounced, and the spelling then often follows suit - "snitzel"). Americans pronounce arse as "ass", so their spelling has come to reflect that pronunciation. However, "You, sir, are a horse's arse" is still a well-accepted (if not necessarily well-received) insult in some British circles. Thanks for the acknowledgment btw, but that really was a wild and jocular guess and I'd actually be surprised if it's correct. But one never knows. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:22, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Looks like I was able to answer my own question: [2]. You are right, the American pronunciation in the derivation. Magog the Ogre (talk) 02:38, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

          Arse dates from 14th century Chaucer (at least) and so predates any American English. Saintmesmin (talk) 21:38, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Japanese

What does something along the lines of "zeh tai dai jo" mean? (I don't know if that's the correct romaji, probably not, but that's how it sounds). Thanks in advance. 92.80.22.121 (talk) 08:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it's "zettai daijōbu". ぜったい大丈夫. It means "absolutely OK/fine". Oda Mari (talk) 10:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

It has something to do with swearing. Like "I swear"... Any ideas? Or it might be what you said. Thanks.92.80.22.121 (talk) 10:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"zettai" might be translated as "I swear", e.g. "I swear I'm fine" or "I swear she's fine". -- BenRG (talk) 11:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. 92.80.22.121 (talk) 12:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

But don't forget "zettai" is not "I swear". It's better to think the "I swear" part is omitted. But I prefer "I assure you" to "I swear". Look at these J to E dictionary pages. [3] and [4]. Oda Mari (talk) 14:34, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I usually just translate 'zettai' (絶対) as 'definitely', so I would say 'I am definitely fine' or 'it will definitely be OK'. In fact, if you want to use something with the same strength of meaning and the same colloquiality as 'I swear', you would use マジで in place of 絶対.--ChokinBako (talk) 16:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you all for your answers.92.80.22.121 (talk) 21:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

What language is this?

Can someone explain the text removed from this edit? Dismas|^(talk) 12:37, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be French with one or two slang/dialect words thrown in complementing her on her ample breasts. Fribbler (talk) 12:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it wonderful that Wikipedia is able to attract vandals from all over the world ? StuRat (talk) 15:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I confirm it's french, slang and sexist one. Sorry but I've a lack of slang english vocabulary for an accurate translation ! To resume : she have the perfect body for sex, a big breast and had sex with Beckam. Interesting no ? For the encylopedic side, it's written in an argot des cités (a young french slang from poor suburds housing estate which becoming contemporary young french slang). I will check on the French Wikipedia to look for other vandalims from this IP. TCY (talk) 10:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Help translating a motto into English

I have added the motto E singulis communitas to the infobox of the article York, Ontario, based on the image to the right. I am not sure of the translation, though from my Latin dictionary, it translated as "Of a single community". I would appreciate help from Latinists in this Wikipedia or even from the Latin Wikipedia. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 03:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"Out of single ones, a community". It looks like it is inspired by E pluribus unum. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I have made the change based on your suggestion. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 15:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. Please keep an eye on this thread though. I'm not a Latinist, and someone might spot a subtle (or not so subtle) mistake in my translation. I guess "out of (six) single communities, one community" makes sense, referring to 1998, when York, Ontario and five other municipalities amalgamated into one single city of Toronto. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:13, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no support for the notion, but since the time capsule (and presumably York's motto) dates from before the amalgamation of the municipalities, I'd assume that the motto simply means "From individuals, a community," referring to the citizens of the city. Deor (talk) 18:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I changed it again to "From individuals, a community," since it best reflects pre-amalgamation York rather than post-amalgamation York or the United States. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 00:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Arabic names: ابن

Could someone clarify a few things about the Arabic word ابن (ibnu) when used with names. If I can remember it aright, the alif is dropped when the word is part of a nasab and is preceded by a proper ism: محمّد بن إبرهيم (muḥammadu bni ʾibrahīmi). When written without case endings, I've seen both transliterations, ibn and bin, used. The latter seems more to reflect the dropping of the alif, but the former is more common. Does anyone know the rules for this, or is this just local variation? — Gareth Hughes (talk) 14:09, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

"Bin" is colloquial Arabic, not standard classical Arabic. In classical Arabic, almost any vowels can precede or follow the -bn- consonant cluster, depending on the syntax, and which words precede and follow. One scholarly convention I've seen is just to transcribe it as "b." when it's medial in a construct chain, and "Ibn" otherwise. For general-purpose transcription of Arabic names into the Latin alphabet, I don't think it's usual to attempt to include word-final short case vowels (i'rab)... AnonMoos (talk) 02:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Hyphens and parsing of prefixes and suffixes

In English, is there any standard dictating that prefixes and suffixes with hyphens be parsed after those without, or that both sides of a hyphen be parsed before the join across the hyphen is made? For example, can "undeletable" be disambiguated by rendering it as "un-deletable" (impossible to delete) or "undelet-able" (possible to undelete)? NeonMerlin 16:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

English does not have standards. I would understand "un-deletable" as you intend it, but would write "non-deletable" myself. For the second one I would write "undelete-able"; I think if you have to hyphenate it then the usual deletion of the final E is canceled. --Anonymous, 16:51, August 6, 2008.

"Br,"

I've noticed very many of my work colleaques sign their email with:

Br,

Firstname Lastname.

What the heck does this "Br," mean? JIP | Talk 18:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Such an abbreviation is too sloppy for me, but it's quite possibly "Best regards" Astronaut (talk) 18:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Chat abbrivations in work email? Yikes, not everyone in a work place knows chatspeak, also it's unprofessional. 70.165.110.211 (talk) 18:42, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I vote for "Best regards" as well and agree that it's unprofessional. Dismas|^(talk) 12:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

"Freund" and "Freundin"

In German, "boyfriend" is "Freund" and "girlfriend" is "Freundin". But "Freund" also simply means "friend" and "Freundin" is simply its female form. How do Germans distinguish between simple acquintances and intimate relationships when they use the same words for both? JIP | Talk 18:11, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I will take a stab at this until Angr hopefully comes along with a more definitive answer. The difference in meaning tends to be clear from context, both social and syntactic. If a straight woman or gay man refers to "mein Freund", Germans generally understand that this means "my boyfriend". If a straight woman or gay man wanted to refer to a friendship without romantic entanglement, he or she would probably say "ein Freund von mir" ("a friend of mine"). Similarly, a straight man or lesbian saying "meine Freundin" would suggest that he/she was referring to his/her girlfriend, as opposed to "eine Freundin von mir". The same principle works in the third person: For example, "seine Freundin", said of a straight man, would typically be a reference to his girlfriend, as opposed to "eine Freundin von ihm". Marco polo (talk) 19:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

English doesn't have the clear distinction either. A monogamous and heterosexual man can have several "boyfriends." NeonMerlin 19:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm American and have never used, nor ever heard, "boyfriend" used by a straight man to refer to his guy friends. In fact, that's the term I hear most when a distinction need be used, "guy friends". Dismas|^(talk) 19:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Much the same as Marco Polo above:

• Freunde / Freundinnen, if used in the plural, clearly refer to friends (in the sense of acquaintances).
• Ein Freund / eine Freundin, used with an indefinite article does the same.
• Mein Freund / meine Freundin, used with a possessive pronoun "my" may (but need not always) refer to a boyfriend / girlfriend.
• I guess that the difference generally becomes clear in the context of the sentence and the gender of the speaker. Presumably semantics get a bit more confusing in a gay context. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with everyone above except NeonMerlin (no straight guy would be caught dead referring to his "boyfriends"!). I would just add that a heterosexual woman can refer to "meine Freundin" in the sense of "my friend", just as a heterosexual woman can say "my girlfriend" in English to refer to a non-romantic female friend. I would also add that other words for friend exist, like Kumpel (roughly equal to "buddy" or "pal" in en-US and "mate" in en-GB), that can be used with a possessive pronoun without risk of romantic implications. —Angr 19:38, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Slight nitpick to Berlin and Germknödels: Kumpel is a term which may be used colloquially in parts of Germany (including Brandenburg), but, if used in my neck of the woods (Vienna, Austria / Austro-Bavarian) would generally refer to miners working underground. The term would be understood to mean "friend" in an appropriate context but would be frowned upon as a Piefkinesisches Wort, where Piefke is an Austrian term (mildly sarcastic) for Germans. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Like the others, in Australia men can't have boyfriends without being gay, but women can definitely have girlfriends without necessarily being lesbians. But nobody can have a "partner" of the same sex anymore without appearing to be outed, so "business partner" has to be used to disambiguate. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

-Dialects in Spanish and English

From a amateur and completely subjective perspective, the difference between Spanish and Catalan seems as far as the difference between 'normal' English and some variations like Glaswegian English. Strangely, Catalan is not considered a dialect or variation of Spanish. Historically it is also meaningful to consider Catalan a language. However, why do we consider Glaswegian English and other variation, English at all? Does it have merely a political motivation? (i.e. to consider the UK as a unity)Mr.K. (talk) 18:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The terms dialect and language are slippery because there is more than one way of distinguishing between them. In practice, a language is often defined as a dialect (or form of speech shared by a community) that has official status within a state. By contrast, a dialect is then a form of speech without official status. This is obviously a political definition. Then there is the conventional linguistic definition, according to which a language is a group of mutually intelligible dialects, whereas a dialect is a dialect rather than a language if it is mutually intelligible with another dialect (of the same language). However, this definition is not clear-cut, since there are degrees of intelligibility among dialects. Also, in a dialect continuum, such as exists for example in northern India, one could group mutually intelligible dialects into languages in any number of arbitrary ways, but in every case, adjacent dialects on opposite sides of the arbitrary boundary would have greater mutual intelligibility with each other than with dialects at the other geographic end of the arbitrary language region. I'm not familiar with Catalan and can't assess the degree of mutual intelligibility between Catalan and Castilian. I am more familiar with Czech and Slovak, which are considered distinct languages but which clearly have greater mutual intelligibility than, say, the Southern Appalachian dialect of American English and Cockney English. So you may be right to suspect that the language/dialect distinction in Spain is made more on political than linguistic grounds. Marco polo (talk) 19:16, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

At least for languages/dialects spoken in parts of the world with high rates of literacy, the distinction between a language and a dialect is more often made on the basis of the presence vs. absence of a well-established literary tradition rather than official status within a state. For example, the difference between Swiss German and Standard German is probably about as great as the difference between Dutch and Standard German, but Swiss German is considered a dialect of German, while Dutch is considered a separate language. There are probably many reasons for this, but I think one of the most important reasons is that Dutch has a well established literary form that is distinct from German, while Swiss German speakers have historically used Standard German as their written language. (That's not to say Swiss German is never written down – of course it is – it's just not used as a written language in Switzerland anywhere near as much as Standard German is.) It's the same with Catalan vs. Spanish and Catalan vs. Valencian – Catalan and Spanish have distinct literary forms, so they're different languages. Valencian doesn't (or traditionally hasn't), so it's generally considered a dialect of Catalan. Of course, this criterion is of no help when examining languages of Papua New Guinea or the Amazon rainforest, but for the parts of the world where writing has been around for a long time, it does seem to be the way a lot of people think about things. At any rate, the decision whether to call A and B separate languages or to call one of them a dialect of the other really is subject to sociological criteria as much as (if not more than) linguistic criteria. —Angr 19:54, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yup, see pluricentric language. I've never seen the term itself outside Wikipedia, but the page covers all those cases and others. --JWB (talk) 20:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I've always liked the phrase attributed to linguist Max Weinreich: a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. OtherDave (talk) 00:34, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Politics is usually the biggest factor. Do you remember talking about Czechoslovakian? Well, after the Iron Curtain fell, it became Czech and Slovak. Occitan used to be its own language. Officially, in France, it's now a dialect of French. Interesting articles on the subject include diglossia, standard language, official language, language politics and language policy. Steewi (talk) 00:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you're thinking of Serbo-Croatian. Czech and Slovak were always considered two different (though very close) languages, even at the height of the Cold War. —Angr 05:15, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Linguistically, Catalan differs quite a bit from standard Spanish (much more than any Glaswegian dialect that I know about differs from standard "RP" English...). AnonMoos (talk) 01:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

One answer which I haven't seen above is that historically, the two are completely different languages with different origins. Spanish developed in Castilla y Leon (hence its Spanish name castellano in Europe), and catalan developed in Catalonia. People have noted that it sounds like a perfect mixture of French and Spanish, but in actuality, it might just as well be a perfect mixture of Gallic language (there were several dialects of French in the Middle Ages) and Iberian language (e.g., castellano, Galician, Portuguese). I'm not 100% sure on this last part, but I am quite sure that the two languages developed separately. It would be no more correct to call catalan a dialect of Spanish than it would be to call it a dialect of French.

PS. It is widely understood that all Latin based languages (e.g., French and Spanish) are indeed different languages, not different dialects of the same language. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Name - proper transliteration

The actor Fu'ad Ait Aatou (IMDb has it as Aattou) appears in the French movie Une vieille maîtresse (The Last Mistress), that we are running in an upcoming festival at the theater where I work. He doesn't have a Wikipedia page of his own. My question: in his name, is that mark an ayin or a hamza? (Or maybe some other mark?) All of the websites I look at just have it as a vertical apostrophe, which I doubt is correct. Does anyone know for certain? — Michael J 20:50, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, the name is spelled فؤاد if that helps. Looks like hamza to me. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:26, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's فؤاد, which is transliterated Fuʾād. That's a hamza over the waw. In French transliteration, it is usually written 'Fouad'. آيت is ʾĀyt with a madda, and is usually written as 'Aït' in French transliteration. I'm not sure about the last word, but it could be آطو, ʾĀṭū. I'm not entirely sure on the last one. — Gareth Hughes (talk) 00:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Girls' names

I 'Andorra' a proper name for a girl? I mean, is it in common usage? And what would be the most common nick name: Andi, Ando, or Dora? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.167.200 (talk) 23:15, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I would certainly never name a girl "Andorra", not only because something else already has that name, but because it would sound too much like Endora. As for nicknames, I'd favor Andi (or Andie or Andy) or Dora (or Dorra) since they're both existing names, rather than "Ando" which isn't. —Angr 23:33, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Relatively few humans have unique given names, Angr, but we all respect your wish to go this way with your unique children.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 23:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

What? I was arguing against unique given names, not for them. —Angr 05:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I think its best to give a normal first or middle name and consequently a "unique" for lack of the use of the term "fucked" or "stupid" or "ghetto" name opposite it respectively, and in most cases an unusual middle name goes well with a normal first name and NOT the other way around.

But here are my suggestions when it comes to unusual names they are still cool and will largely avoid ridicule!

1. Wednesday 2. River 3. Rain 4. Love 5. Nostalgia 6. Green 7. [Place she was made] (If it could pass for a name, Paris yes, Rio yes, Andorra, me thinks not!) 8. Seven 9. Happy 10. Lucifer - Lucy for short! X. Danger always makes an endlessly cool middle name

p.s. hmmm Toronto isn't a bad boys name now is it? also Cardinal directions are cool, North or West?^MY♥_INchile 00:24, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

There are always exceptions, but I recommend the Supreme Court test for a child's name: "Hey, Mrs. Marshall -- can Thurgood come out and play?" OtherDave (talk) 00:39, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't Lucifer a male angel (as far as angels can have a sex), and wasn't "he" the one who morphed into Satan? -- JackofOz (talk) 02:43, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Yep. Lucifer points out that Phosphoros is the Greek form for this Latin name meaning "bearer of light." Used to refer to the morning star; Milton used the name specifically for the angel who becomes the prince of demons, though a footnote in the Lucifer article says Milton used "Lucifer" only three times, while using "Satan" 72 times. Hell of a thing. OtherDave (talk) 11:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you're thinking of Andrea, which is a perfectly acceptable girl's name. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The origins and meaning of Andorra are unknown (possibly French Basque or Arabic meaning forest?). I also found a meaning for Andora stating that it meant courageous. As far as popularity rankings I found this site which lists both Andorra and Andora (though I'm unsure how they figure their rankings). As far as nicknames go that is your choice. I like Andi (any spelling) but Ann, Dora, and Addy all workOmahapubliclibrary (talk) 20:57, 7 August 2008 (UTC)