Language desk
< June 12	<< May \| June \| Jul >>	June 14 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

June 13[edit]

Position of "not"[edit]

Considering the sentences:

"Consider, for a change, that this is a moment to be not feared but cultivated."

to

"Consider, for a change, that this is a moment not to be  feared but cultivated."

Are both correct? GoingOnTracks (talk) 00:14, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I see it, both are correct, althought the first one sounds a bit more stilted and clumsy. If the two options were adjectives, it would be the better option. Consider "This is a time when we should not be hateful, but angry" and "This is a time when we should be not hateful, but angry". The commas can clarify it as well. Steewi (talk) 00:34, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec, but here it is, anyway) I think the position of not is more idiomatic in the second sentence, but if you want to satisfy the schoolmarms by preserving parallelism, you could write, "Consider, for a change, that this is a moment not to be feared but to be cultivated." Even better might be "Consider, for a change, that this is a moment to be cultivated, not feared." Deor (talk) 00:37, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"mock group"[edit]

What does "mock group" mean?68.148.164.166 (talk) 21:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In what context?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:17, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Evil Council, (aka Councilium Malum Trium), is a mock group founded by three Lancaster, Pennsylvanian high school students in 2005.

68.148.164.166 (talk) 07:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mock usually means fake or practice. So a mock-group would be a fake-group. So they are either not really a group and are just made-up or they are a group that is mocking something and are therefore more in the realms of (I guess) satire. A mock-exam is a fake/practice exam for example. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 10:04, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Other meanings, imitation, trial, something real but a substitute for another thing... not the real thing? But then remembering google I find that in clinical trials, a "mock group" is the other group in contrast to the "control group". Julia Rossi (talk) 10:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't sound right. The control group is the group given the placebo. If anything, that would be the same thing as the mock group, although I've not heard that term used there. StuRat (talk) 14:32, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In this context, I'd say the "Evil Council" isn't actually trying to advance the cause of Evil on Earth, but more likely a bunch of Goths getting together to socialize and/or make fun of the other school cliques. StuRat (talk) 14:34, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

hebrew writing[edit]

I need help... please translate english to hebrew "LOVE THYSELF"

thank you so much

--58.69.81.252 (talk) 08:15, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't get tattoos in languages you don't know. You'll just wind up embarrassing yourself. —An gr 16:56, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Modern Hebrew with masculine singular imperative would be אהב את עצמך . With imperfect (more colloquial), it would be תאהב את עצמך . There could be other variations... AnonMoos (talk) 17:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's with the "thyself"? If that's to indicate a familiar (rather than formal) second person pronoun, modern Hebrew doesn't make that distinction. If it's to indicate an "old-timey" effect, perhaps what cristina wants is Biblical Hebrew? I endorse the comments of Angr and AnonMoos, above. -- Deborahjay (talk) 18:53, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I assume it's to be parallel with Know thyself and/or "Physician, heal theyself"... AnonMoos (talk) 16:14, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ok so its "LOVE MYSELF" please translate... its for my daily diary thing ok.

Translation of "Bhole Nath" - Sanskrit[edit]

I know that Bhole Nath is a title for Shiva, and that Nath means Lord or Protector, but what does the Bhole mean? -- Q Chris (talk) 09:01, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does it mean something like "innocent"/"simple"? I'm not sure, don't take my word for it. :-) --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 09:58, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think any Sanskrit words end with an "e". The nearest I can find is bholi, which is a camel. There is an on-line Sanskrit dictionary here.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 19:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Monier Monier-Williams's Sanskrit dictionary gives it as "Bholā-nātha" भोलानाथ. The first part seems to be derived from "Bhola", which is the word for "the son of a Vaiśya and of a Naṭī" (a "naṭī" is an actress, dancer, nautch girl, or courtesan. —An gr 19:26, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shiva is called as "Bholenath"-The one who is easily pleased. Although some, take the meaning literally, but I feel that there is something deeper and philosophical meaning to this word.

What other meaning for this word my small mind has understood is: Bholenath, means Bhole- child like people nath- refuge, lord So Shiva is lord of pure/childlike people. Or It may mean Lord who is childlike and purity himself.

Can someone elaborate this word into deeper meaning

phonetic script of Kachhi (Kachchhi) language[edit]

Vadhod (talk) 11:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)i have seen some material on Kachhi language, the script written for Kachhi words do not match the pronunciation. i am working on this subject for quite some time. We, in Kachh (Kachchh) use modified Gujarati script for our Kachhi language. I have also prepared Kachhi fonts for the phonemes of Kachhi language using Fontographer software. How can I present these fonts to articles related to Kachhi language subjects on wikipedia ? I am prepared to present article on the subject using this fonts of Kachhi script and English script.Vadhod (talk) 11:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your fonts will have to comply with the Unicode standard to be of use for Wikipedia... AnonMoos (talk) 17:00, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

kachhi (kachchhi) language[edit]

to the chief editors of wilipedia, how can i present Kachhi fonts to be used in relation to material on the subject of Kachhi language ? please guide. Is it possible to download these fonts and integrate on wikipedia ?Vadhod (talk) 11:34, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are no chief editors, just us normal ones. :-) Are you referring to this article? Changing the fonts on a user's computer isn't possible from here; the user would have to already have the font, otherwise it doesn't matter what the website specifies. If the symbols used are the wrong ones then we should just change the symbol written in the article to the correct one; if the correct symbol is likely to not occur in most fonts then we can mention a link to where such a font can be obtained, perhaps. Can you give an example of some incorrect symbols and what the corrections should be? --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 11:46, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I checked on Kutchi language, the text given looks like Gujarāti to my untrained eye. Do you mean that the words are spelt wrongly, or it is not displaying on your computer? If it's not displaying on your computer you might like to check the information in Help:Multilingual support (Indic). --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 11:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

English = Latin?[edit]

Is English the Latin of the XXI century? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.6.118.85 (talk) 12:39, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you mean, can you clarify the question? English is a modern lingua franca like Latin once was, if that's what you meant. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 12:51, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Latin was later used to intentionally obscure things, such as religion, so you had to believe whatever the Church told you, since you couldn't read the Bible yourself, and, to this day, law, so you must hire an expensive lawyer, since you can't understand the Latin terms yourself. English isn't used that way, as far as I know, yet. Perhaps if it someday becomes a dead language they will use it that way. StuRat (talk) 14:26, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't say either of those were intentionally made obscure; they were rendered in Latin long ago, when it was more widespread, and then became obscure as it fell out of use. I make no judgement on whether the legal profession, as a body, intentionally keep their terms of art obscure in Latin for job security purposes, but I suppose it's not impossible! :-) If English dies out (hurry the day!) then existing English texts will obviously become obscure too (until somebody translates them).

Personally I'm quite fond of Latin, maybe I'm biased in some fashion!

--_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 14:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Blog this..."[edit]

The term "blog" is an abbreviation for "web log", but is unusual in that it drops letters at the start of the word rather than the end. Do we have a list of similar abbreviations ? StuRat (talk) 14:28, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

phone, from telephone. I'm sure there are more. -- Q Chris (talk) 14:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Clipping (morphology)#Fore-clipping for a few examples. One not included there is bus (from omnibus). Deor (talk) 14:54, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And "plane" from "aeroplane"/"airplane". I'm sure we could go on for a while. :-P --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 14:59, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Copter, dropsy, toon. --Lambiam 16:47, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cello. —An gr 17:06, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not trying to hijack the question, but I think there's a slight difference, because "web" and "log" are both words, so if they follow the other examples, shouldn't it just be dropped to "log"? Are there other examples where two existing words (or prefixes/suffixes) are joined as one word, like "telephone", but when it got shortened, turned to part of one word + the full second word? Sorry, this is hard to explain for me, so I'll give an example using "telephone" again. Like, tele + phone became telephone, but shortened to lephone instead of just phone (like in the case of blog). --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 17:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In Moroccan Arabic a car is called "tomobile". ---Sluzzelin talk 17:17, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've had some cars that could accurately be called "tow-mobiles". :-) StuRat (talk) 23:04, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And "copter" comes close, as "helicopter" is etymologically a compound "helico-" + "pter-". —An gr 17:23, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Dropsy" might also be one, though it's unclear whether Greek hydrōps is actually a compound of hydr- "water" + ōps "face". —An gr 17:30, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neo-classical words like hydropsy are hard to analyze. They may be considered compounds or something in-between. If you consider hydr-opsy a compound, then (hy)dr-opsy this is exactly like (we)b-log.

I wonder for how many people the word helicopter is considered to be segmentable. It may depend on knowledge of etymology, which may not be native knowledge.

It's clear, though, that the place where a word is clipped doesnt have to be at a morpheme boundary from clipped forms derived from single morpheme words: rent(s) < parent(s), fro < afro, Kev < Kevin, coon < raccoon.

Finding a compound of free words (and not bound elements) that was clipped from the middle of the first free word to the beginning is hard. I cant think of any. But it's easy to find a clipping with the first free word in a compound being clipped from the end: mutt < mutt(on-head), poke < pock(et-book), pub < pub(lic-house), coke < coc(a-cola) (but maybe people cant analyze the cola as being a real word).

And there are more with multiple morpheme words that arent compounds: bike < bi-c(ycle), pram < p(e)r-am(bulate-or) (the e in per- is not clipped, this is just phonological reduction).

A somewhat different one is org-man from org(anization)-man.

Chemical ones have interesting clippings too: parylene < par(a-x)yl-ene.

None of these are quite like blog but they are similar (more or less). – ishwar (speak) 18:11, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe we should ask Topher Grace. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:05, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or Xander Berkeley. --Deor (talk) 22:39, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. There's quite a few. Too bad we don't have them all in a handy list. (Clipping (morphology)#Fore-clipping only had a few.) StuRat (talk) 23:00, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]