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December 5[edit]

Etymology of the word 'Karcist'[edit]

It's a title I found in the Grand Grimoire. déhanchements (talk) 07:25, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is probably a nonce word created for whoever penned the book. AFAIK, the word does not appear in the OED, and it is not in any of the online etymology resources like etymonline either. --Jayron 32 15:35, 5 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Courtesy link: Grand Grimoire. Alansplodge (talk) 19:19, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing I found was this thread on the Wordorigins Discussion Forum with the only real suggestion being: "I thought, maybe from "kara" meaning black in Turkish, it might be a black sorcerer". Alansplodge (talk) 21:42, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

déhanchements, on digging even deeper, I eventually found William Kiesel - Magic Circles in the Grimoire Tradition (p. 53) which says: "A possible speculative etymology of the word Karcist; 'kar' [in German] = cirque, or in the Latin; circ-us: circus = circle. Thus karcist would be one who employs circles." Alansplodge (talk) 22:23, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A German manuscript supposedly from 1775 (which would make it the oldest known manuscript for the Grand Grimoire/Dragon Rouge, henceforth GG/DR) features the word "karsist."^[1] Most of it is focused on forming a pact with Lucifer as given to Solomon by Lucifuge Rofocale (here luzifusch floreall), using the same altar and Italian invocation as in the GG/DR -- but sans the forked blasting rod found in all Romance versions of GG/DR. A list with (variations of) the names Satanachia, Agalariept, Fleurety, Sargatanas, and Nebiros (from the Romance Secrets of Solomon line of grimoires)^[2] is tacked on the end (as in the Romance versions of GG and LDR) but does not feature the first 18 spirits (in order) from the Lesser Key of Solomon (unlike the Romance versions). It also does not feature any other material from the Secrets of Solomon, and the names are way more corrupted than they are in the Grimoirium Verum (Satanachia is "stanaschia" and Agalariept is "agaliariarel").

It would appear to be a German innovation that was introduced via the Grand Grimoire but to have spread no further than the derivative (nigh identical) Dragon Rouge. However, there's the problem that the Grimoire of Pope Honorius is also related to the GG/DR (and the Grimoirium Verum), and has German manuscripts but does not feature any form of the word Karcist either (but the German manuscripts are younger as far as I've seen). Despite GG/DR being extremely Faustian in nature, I've not found any form of karcist used in self-proclaimed Faustian works that were common in Germany, even ones that were obsessed with circles. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:25, 9 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Bent Scharfenberg. Grimoire - Manuskript um 1775. Books on Demand GmBH. p. 15.
^ Joseph H. Peterson (2018). The Secrets of Solomon: A Witch's Handbook from the trial records of the Venetian Inquisition. Twilit Grotto Press. pp. 4–28.

80.162.26.181 (talk) 21:09, 5 February 2020 (UTC) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%83%D8%B1%D8%B2#Etymology_2 Ultimately from ancient Greek κῆρῠξ meaning herald. This is speculative, but I find it compelling.[reply]

[1] Bent Scharfenberg. Grimoire - Manuskript um 1775. Books on Demand GmBH. p. 15.

[2] Joseph H. Peterson (2018). The Secrets of Solomon: A Witch's Handbook from the trial records of the Venetian Inquisition. Twilit Grotto Press. pp. 4–28.

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