Language desk
< July 11	<< Jun \| July \| Aug >>	July 13 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

July 12[edit]

English punctuation: Madness! ... Madness![edit]

I can't find comma rules for situations like this. Is it "Hi Bob!" or "Hi, Bob!"? (no drinking allowed) Clarityfiend (talk) 09:47, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd choose the version with a comma. Comma#Vocative suggests that's a good idea. Bazza (talk) 09:53, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

From a strictly grammatical viewpoint that might be correct, but I still don't like it very much. A comma is supposed to indicate a pause in speaking, but you'd be hard pushed to notice a pause if someone said "Hi Bob". --Viennese Waltz 11:08, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. The use of the exclamation mark marks it as being a shout or hail - no pauses. However, I would put a comma in the similarly constructed "Hello, Bob." Matt Deres (talk) 12:27, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I can hear the pause quite well in "Hi, Bob!" --Khajidha (talk) 13:08, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Viennese Waltz, our comma article does not support your claim that a comma is supposed to indicate a pause in speech. Its sole mention of pauses is: "The mark used today is descended from a diagonal slash, or virgula suspensiva ( / ), used from the 13th to 17th centuries to represent a pause". Commas certainly can indicate or coincide with pauses, but they don't always do so. For example, we often precede a quote embedded in a sentence with a comma, but in speaking that sentence we probably would not pause. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:20, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would use a pause in every example given on the comma page. --Khajidha (talk) 22:06, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, "A comma is supposed to indicate a pause in speaking" isn't true. It sometimes does that, especially when people are writing speeches or writing for a teleprompter, but commas also and primarily serve various other functions; . Many of those functions will also translate into pauses, but exactly which ones do depends on the speaker, the specific construction, the register, the speed of the speech, etc. This "pause" stuff is basically irrelevant when it comes to written material, except for someone who slowly "sounds out" what they're reading in their mental ear at about the same rate as someone speaking. Many people read much faster than that. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:04, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The expression "Hi Bob!" sounds like Bob is intoxicated. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:26, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Traditionally with the comma, as in Hello, Dolly! Equinox ◑ 17:59, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Or not, as in "That's All Folks!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:10, 13 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Should also have a comma. The Looney Tunes closing titles (which were made for children, not adult readers) used a non-standard approach – inserting a capital F instead of the comma – to make "Folks" stand apart from the rest of the construction (note that the "all" isn't capitalized). It's a weird stylization that others would not likely have arrived at (since they don't). "That's all folks" would seem to indicate "That mass, over there, consists of people of all kinds". Heh. E.g., it'd be like "This K–12 school is all grades", "The UN is all countries". >;-) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:04, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it should, especially since it was spoken with a slight pause between "That's all" and "Folks".[1] The comma is also missing from Mel Blanc's tombstone.[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:01, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you say or call out "Hi, Bob!" and you leave a significant pause at the comma, the impression left in listeners' minds is that your name is Bob and you are reminding him that it is. Like, "Hi, it's me, I'm Bob". If directly addressing someone who you know to be Bob, it's appropriate to leave out the comma so that the Bob follows quickly after the Hi. Akld guy (talk) 06:07, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree. For me your example would be two sentences ("Hi! Bob!", as ellipsis of "Hi! (It's) Bob!"). You can find "hi, X" or "hello, X" with the comma in any number of printed books, many from an era when people were more careful about punctuation. Equinox ◑ 01:54, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But that's not what "Hi, Bob!" means. It's a routine acknowledgement of Bob by name, not an excited declaration that Bob has come into view or been discovered. "Hi! Bob!" would be something very different; that's two separate sentences of surprise or some other strong emotion. First, there's the "Hi!" interjection, perhaps in this case indicating surprise that someone is there, or that someone present has recognized and greeted you, followed by surprised recognition and acknowledgement that it is, after all, Bob. I would expect (if I were Bob) a "Hi! Bob!" if I'd come up behind someone at the supermarket, someone I hadn't seen in years, and tapped them on the shoulder with a "What's up!" or the like. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:04, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Another one where the comma is by far the dominating form is the computer programmer's "Hello, World!" program. Equinox ◑ 01:59, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Equinox. I think it boils down to what you mean by "significant pause". The pause in "Hi, Bob!" is perceptible, but is not the same length as the one in "Hi! Bob!". --Khajidha (talk) 10:49, 17 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It should have the comma. Fiction writers might leave it out for effect sometimes, when trying to indicate rapid speech. Grammatically, it's the same kind of construction as "A good day to you, fine sir!" and "Welcome to our humble abode, esteemed Madame President!"; those are just longer. The comma belongs. People who want to drop this comma are the same ones who want to drop them from other introductory phrases (i.e., they want to write tings like "In early 1392 the French forces surrounding the castle gave up their siege", or "However they decided that was not a good plan for the future of the company", or "Unbeknownst to his wife he was taking lunch a strip club twice a week"). This style is found in professional writing pretty much only in news journalism, and only under certain house styles, adopted by those desperate to save column width, and willing to sacrifice clarity to get it. It's sloppy, and often results in confusing constructions. E.g., the second example verges on stupid, because it forgets that "however" can also mean "in whatever manner that" or "by whatever means that", and that it's the comma that distinguishes these different usages. Leaving the comma off that sentence make it look like an incomplete sentence fragment, forcing the reader to stop and re-parse it to extract what the intended meaning was. Never make the reader have to re-parse your material, or you're failing in your writing mission: to clearly communicate. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:04, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]