Language desk
< July 23	<< Jun \| July \| Aug >>	July 25 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

July 24[edit]

The weird word whether: two questions about how it functions in various languages[edit]

I wonder whether there are languages, that have a word - translated (into English) by "if" - in sentences like "If you come then I will be glad" (let's call it "if"), and have also a word - translated (into English) by "whether" - in sentences like "I wonder whether you will come" (let's call it "whether"), but still the word "whether" - in those languages - as opposed to English:

1. Cannot be replaced by "if" - in sentences like "I wonder whether you will come" (Assuming that it can't, can it replace "if" - in sentences like "If you come then I will be glad"?)

Or:

2. Can be used in direct questions, just as it can - in indirect ones (e.g. "I wonder whether you will come"), just as English uses the other WH interrogative words (when where what who etc.) in both indirect questions (e.g. "I wonder when you will come"), and direct ones (e.g. "when will you come?"). Umzu (talk) 07:23, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This question is rather difficult to deal with as the OP keeps changing the wording. The following response relates to the original version. Hope it helps:

I question your premise. What is wrong with the construction "I ask if it's a tree"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:C708:8C00:B0C8:D69:FA32:D1C8 (talk) 09:41, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've never claimed (in any old version of my question), that your construction (or any construction analogous to yours) is wrong. Please follow my question. Umzu (talk) 09:57, 24 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, such languages do exist. Polish, for example. In Polish, there is the word jeżeli (or jeśli), which translates as "if", but doesn't translate as "whether". Jeśli przyjdziesz, to się ucieszę. (If you come, then I will be glad.) And there's the word czy, which translates as "whether", but doesn't translate as "if". Zastanawiam się, czy przyjdziesz. (I wonder whether you will come.) The same word may be used in direct questions. Czy przyjdziesz? (Will you come?) You can also build a "whether ... or" construction by repeating the word. Czy przyjdziesz, czy nie, to i tak się ucieszę. (Whether you come or not, I will still be glad.) You can't replace jeśli with czy, nor the other way around. — Kpalion^(talk) 11:33, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, thank you! How do you pronounce jeżeli/jeśli and czy in IPA (including stress)? Umzu (talk) 13:02, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Umzu! Have you tried Wiktionary? Pages wikt:jeżeli, wikt:jeśli and wikt:czy present both IPA transcription and example audio clips. --CiaPan (talk) 13:10, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thx. Umzu (talk) 13:17, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Does Polish (like English) have any word, that can be placed - instead of the blank space - both in "____ you come then I will be glad" and in "I wonder ____ you will come"? If Polish does have such a word, can it be used in direct sentences as well? (Just as English uses the other WH interrogative words, when where what who etc., in both indirect questions and direct ones)? Umzu (talk) 13:17, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. The best example would be kiedy (when). Kiedy przyjdziesz, to się ucieszę. (When you come, then I will be glad.) Zastanawiam się, kiedy przyjdziesz. (I wonder when you will come.) Kiedy przyjdziesz? (When will you come?) — Kpalion^(talk) 13:36, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Kpalion and Umzu: That's right. However, kiedy modifies the meaning of those sentences. 'When you come, I'll be happy' focuses on happiness, which will result from an expected visit. The exact time is of less importance here, so we can easily replace 'when' with 'if' without big change of meaning. On the other hand, 'I wonder when you come' concentrates specifically on the time, as opposed to 'I wonder if/whether you come', which is mostly about the expected seeing the other person, at any time (as long as it's not too long... (pun unintended)). So, you can replace 'jeśli' (if) and 'czy' (whether) with 'kiedy' (when) and get grammaticaly valid and meaningful sentences, but their meaning may change in different ways or to different degree due to such replacement. --CiaPan (talk) 15:08, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course. I'm not saying that kiedy przyjdziesz is equivalent to jeśli przyjdziesz. I'm just saying that kiedy is a word that fulfills the conditions set in Umzu's question. — Kpalion^(talk) 15:16, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's because I was wrong with my example. I'd better asked about the sentence: "____ there is extraterrestrial life then we are not alone". I assume Polish (as opposed to English) has no word that can be placed - instead of the blank space - both in that sentence and in "I wonder ____ you will come". Umzu (talk) 17:00, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, jak would fit (see below), but only in colloquial Polish: Jak istnieje życie pozaziemskie, to nie jesteśmy sami. (If there is extraterrestrial life, then we are not alone.) Zastanawiam się, jak przyjdziesz. (I wonder how you will come.) But there is no word in Polish that means both "if" (as in conditional clauses) and "whether". — Kpalion^(talk) 17:22, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's because I was wrong also with my if-example. I'd better asked about the sentence: "I wonder____ there is extraterrestrial life". So I understand Polish (as opposed to English) has no word that can be placed - instead of the blank space - both in that sentence and in the sentence: "____ there is extraterrestrial life then we are not alone". Umzu (talk) 18:13, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's right. — Kpalion^(talk) 18:53, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly, kiedy may be replaced with the shorter, unstressed form gdy, but only as a conjunction: Gdy przyjdziesz, to się ucieszę. (When you come, then I will be glad.) You can't use gdy as an interrogative pronoun. — Kpalion^(talk) 15:06, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Another word that would work in both examples is jak (how). Zastanawiam się, jak przyjdziesz. (I wonder how you will come.) In informal speech, jak may be also used a conjunction in the same sense as "if" or "when": Jak przyjdziesz, to się ucieszę. (If/when you come, then I will be glad.) — Kpalion^(talk) 15:12, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hopefully this Interactive IPA Chart http://www.ipachart.com/ will appear useful at least for some RefDesk/L participants. CiaPan (talk) 16:14, 25 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't understand the original question, which is one reason why I ignored it. However, this later question is clear: I'd better asked about the sentence: "I wonder____ there is extraterrestrial life". So I understand Polish (as opposed to English) has no word that can be placed - instead of the blank space - both in that sentence and in the sentence: "____ there is extraterrestrial life then we are not alone". A premise here is that English has such a [single] word. And it does indeed have such a word if you believe that "if" is a "subordinating conjunction". Unthinking grammatical orthodoxy says that it is one. Read and digest this paper (particularly pages 263-270), and you'll realize that "subordinating conjunction" is a bit of a nonsense, that (in today's English, which I think is what's being discussed here) there's "if" as a subordinator and "if" as a preposition; and thus there are two words of different grammatical categories ("parts of speech") that happen to have the same pronunciation and spelling. -- Hoary (talk) 00:41, 26 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]