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June 25[edit]

Writing out pronunciation[edit]

Kaʻiulani is pronounced kah-ee-uu-lah-knee and commonly mispronounce as kai-uu-lah-knee. Can somebody help me write out the proper and improper pronunciation of Kaʻiulani using Help:IPA/Hawaiian like in Likelike's article? KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:11, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My guess: Hawaiian pronunciation: [kaːiːuː'laːniː], incorrect: Hawaiian pronunciation: [kɐjuː'laːniː] Jmar67 (talk) 06:41, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wiktionary give the Hawaiʻian pronunciation as /ka.ʔjuˈla.ni/, [kəʔjuˈlɐni], which is derived algorithmically from the spelling; is that wrong? The article Hawaiian phonology mentions the diphthong [i̯u], rendered as [ju] in Help:IPA/Hawaiian. So are the ‹iu› definitely two distinct monophthongs? The ʻokina represents a glottal stop, so it should be represented as [ʔ]. It is generally hard to impossible for someone who does not know a language to guess which syllable(s) (if any) in a name are stressed. Hawaiian phonology states: "Word stress is predictable in words of one to four syllables but not in words of five or more syllables." From the section Stress in that article we learn that the penult is stressed but that there is a second (unpredictable) stress. If this name "behaves" like the name Kaʻahumanu mentioned over there, the other stress is on the second syllable. Combining this results in something like Hawaiian pronunciation: [kaˈʔi.u.ˈla.ni]. The vowel values (in particular for the ‹a›s) and lengths are rather uncertain, but it is somewhat unlikely that all are long. --Lambiam 10:33, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Lambiam:, I think you are closest. I am not a linguist so I’m not sure what stresses and diphthong would sound like. There are incidents where iu are pronounced together but not in this case. It does sound like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynLO33Kwqn0&feature=youtu.be&t=1m03s (1:03 second mark) or https://youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=bClKEtldB9c&t=31s (0:31 second mark). And also looking to write out the common improper pronunciation : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czY07Uhuxwo&feature=youtu.be&t=15s (0:15 second mark)... Yep the wiki dictionary pronunciation is wrong. KAVEBEAR (talk) 14:37, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A syllable being stressed manifests generally by its vowel being spoken at a slightly higher tone. In the first clip, where the name is sung, I hear the last two syllables long, but that may be due to the rhythm of the melody. In the second clip all vowels sound short to me except for the second ‹a›; in this spoken version the [u] is even exceptionally short. The first ‹a› sounds not only shorter but also markedly less bright than the second. If there is a second stress (as there should be if our article Hawaiian phonology is correct), it is on the first syllable. Marking this as secondary stress, what I get is Hawaiian pronunciation: [ ˌkɐ.ʔi.u.ˈlaː.ni]. You cannot expect people to get any foreign name in an unfamiliar language right, and for a name this long there are countless ways of mispronouncing it, so I'd advise against singling out any specific mispronunciation. Disclaimer: my knowledge and understanding of Hawaiʻian phonology is fully based on our article and nothing else. --Lambiam 18:10, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In careful Hawaiian spelling long vowels are marked with a macron. See here, where Ka'iulani (without macrons) is mentioned right next to Kalākaua (with a macron). Hence, I don't think any of Ka'iulani's vowels should be marked long in IPA. --Wrongfilter (talk) 18:31, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The section Hawaiian phonology#Monophthongs states that short /a/ is phonetically [ɐ] when stressed. What do you hear? --Lambiam 19:17, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That seems about right for both a's. I honestly can't tell which syllable has the main stress, if any. Both a's have at least secondary stress. --Wrongfilter (talk) 19:28, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that Wiktionary only marks the penult suggests it has primary stress. I found an interesting relevant snippet: "If two or more stress groups occur in a single word, the last one as spoken is usually somewhat louder than the preceding one or ones."^[1]" However, the following paragraph states that the definite article Ka as the first part of a name is a clitic (and, by implication, unstressed, putting the second stress on the syllable [ʔi]). That is not what I think I hear, but native speakers may hear this differently. --Lambiam 20:23, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Proto-IE: Labiovelar origin[edit]

I've read the following claim and request a source:

> This same process is claimed by some to lie behind the development of labiovelars in Proto-Indo-European

[see Northwest Caucasian languages]

If it's not even clear what "this" is, because two theories are mentioned, it might as well be both, that is a vowel feature like rounding going over into the consonant, or, if I understand correctly, some prefix causing the same.

A mere "citation needed" won't do I'm affraid, because PIE is not really subject of the article, thus not getting that many views from IE'ists. 109.41.1.36 (talk) 17:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See Labialized velar consonant#Historical development, the first sentence of which implicitly describes the consonantal aspect of the first of the two hypothesized processes (kʷ < ku, etc.); this is also tersely and (even more) vaguely referred to in the lead of Indo-European sound laws. I have slapped a {{who}} on the unacceptably weaselly "claimed by some". --Lambiam 18:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What's the difference between a hospital medical center and something that only has one of those in its name?[edit]

Like Placeville Hospital Medical Center. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:42, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing. I won't insult you by linking to where I did the google search that you could have done and saved the time typing your question and found the answer faster. Or maybe I will. Because maybe then you'll learn how to use Google, which would be a service to all involved. [2]. The first link on that search contains the sentence "Medical centers and hospitals are one and the same". Further links make it clear the two terms are interchangeable and carry no meaning beyond marketing. --Jayron 32 17:47, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You could dial down the aggression and arrogance, particularly when you're wrong for for at least some part of the world. Fgf10 (talk) 08:41, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm asking why they have both redundant synonyms in the same name. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:56, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PHMC emphasizes that the MC is associated with the hospital. PHC is ambiguous. PMC could be synonymous with PH but implies an MC not associated with the hospital. Not all MCs (which provide outpatient services) are hospitals. Jmar67 (talk) 18:03, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Not all MCs ... are hospitals." That may be true, but it flat-out contradicts the earlier emphatic pronouncement, "Medical centers and hospitals are one and the same". Is (for example) "Alvarado Hospital Medical Center"^[3] entirely synonymous with "Alvarado Hospital", or is there some subtle or less subtle difference? If they are the same, why not simply use the name "Alvarado Hospital"? The websites of various Californian "XYZ Hospital Medical Center"s are remarkably similar;^[4][5][6][7] they seem to be branches of a chain. --Lambiam 18:29, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

One thing's for sure: if there isn't another difference then they're just making themselves look important just for taking outpatients. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:43, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Look, the term "Hospital", "Medical Center", and similar terms such as "Clinic", mean "A place where healthcare happens" in only the most broad sense, and the specific kinds of health care is not standardized in any meaningful way such that you can draw any distinctions from the branding of a place. There is no reliable way to draw conclusions on any differences. You can find, if you cherry pick, specific such facilities that would have differences, but for any such comparisons, you can find comparisons that would lead you to the opposite conclusion. The terms are interchangeable, and the use of any one, or even multiple, of the terms in the branding of a specific facility carries no meaning that can be transferred to any greater concept. They mean "a place where healthcare happens" and nothing more specific than that. --Jayron 32 18:59, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't a hospital usually have beds? Healthcare also happens in my GP's office, but I'd be rather astounded if they rebranded their office as "Eucalyptus Grove Hospital". --Lambiam 19:43, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@ User:Jayron32: A comment on your "Medical centers and hospitals are one and the same". Further links make it clear the two terms are interchangeable and carry no meaning beyond marketing: That may be true where you are, but it certainly is not true in other places, such as Australia. When you go to a doctor (GP) down here, most typically these days it will be a "clinic" or "medical centre" where numerous GPs and sometimes allied health professionals practise. There may be a nurse on staff. But if you need to go to a hospital, that is quite a different place. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:18, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The same in the UK. No-one would call a hospital a "medical centre". "Medical centre" would be a GP practice, typically one of the larger ones that combines the traditional GP role with other medical services on-site, such as a practice nurse, physiotherapist, etc. MapReader (talk) 07:09, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Here in Southern California (very large population) if it is a big building with an emergency room, intensive care, and a bunch of beds, it's a hospital. If it's a multi-story building right next to the hospital with elevators and halls leading to suites that each have several doctors, you need to make an appointment, plus there is one suite where they draw blood and another where they do X-rays, MRI, etc., it's a medical center. If it is smaller, not near the hospital, you can walk in, and there are one to maybe four doctors, it's a clinic. if it is just one doctor in a strip mall, it's a doctor's office. Plus there are nursing homes, convalescent hospitals, managed care retirement homes, children's hospitals, cancer centers, cardiac centers, and that dude who works out of a van and doesn't ask questions if you show up with a gunshot wound. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:24, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, a medical centre and a hospital are two completely different things in the UK. The American members here would do well to qualify their overly generalised answers, rather than be so parochial to assume their situation applies globally. Fgf10 (talk) 08:41, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Several university hospitals in Germany, and even most in the Netherlands, have a name of the form "<Something> Medical Center". --Lambiam 09:17, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, nobody is saying that doesn't happen, but categorically saying they're the same without regional qualification is factually incorrect. The usual problem of parochialism on the Refdesk. Fgf10 (talk) 16:48, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This writeup asserts that "hospital" and "medical center" are the same thing.[8] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:58, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Then the author should read this thread and become aware that this is true only in certain places, not in general. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:46, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cruise ships tend to have medical centres/centers, but not hospitals. Maybe not the best example in current times, but they do tend to be usually heavily influenced by American cultural norms. HiLo48 (talk) 23:57, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Flinders Medical Centre is an exception that challenges the rule about Australia. FMC, though it is now associated with privately-operated medical complex, was for most of its existence a State-run public hospital. Doug butler (talk) 00:41, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) The Radcliffe Infirmary was Oxford's hospital. A new hospital, the John Radcliffe Hospital, was built to replace it (on Headington Hill, I see), and the old one was closed down. I doubt that there is any substantive difference between a hospital, an infirmary and a medical centre. Robert Maxwell's Pergamon Press used to be at Headington Hill Hall - my sister worked there. 2A00:23C5:E117:6100:9180:E6F5:51C7:3E2F (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think what's clear is that a hospital admits patients (the link isn't great, by the way, but it's better than nothing). The less specific term "medical center" doesn't guarantee that. But for the big "medical centers" that do admit patients, then as others have said, there is no substantive difference. --Trovatore (talk) 18:32, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But St Ann's Hospital is outpatients only. 2A00:23C5:E117:6100:9180:E6F5:51C7:3E2F (talk) 18:37, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. That's a new one on me. --Trovatore (talk) 18:47, 28 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Until the nineties it had hundreds of beds,^[9] and after redevelopment it will have inpatients again.^[10] --Lambiam 13:11, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

St Ann's is earmarked for mental health services but these plans don't always come to fruition. St Leonard's Hospital, Hackney is also outpatients only. In the past decade there was a plan to make the site the main mental health hospital in Hackney but it was decided to continue to provide the service from the Homerton Hospital. 2A00:23C5:C70B:500:ED1E:D467:15F0:EBAE (talk) 13:24, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article for St Leonard's is written in the past tense, and says it "ceased to operate as a general hospital" in 1984, although "the building continues to be used". --Trovatore (talk) 17:47, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have noticed a tendency over the last few years to rebrand establishments with perfectly well-understood names as "whatever centres" in an effort to make them sound more trendy and hip; for instance, a museum is now a "heritage centre", an art gallery is an "art centre", a church is a "Christian centre", a zoo is a "wildlife centre" and a school is an "education centre". There are others but you get the idea. Calling a hospital or a doctors' surgery (or office) a "medical centre" is just another example of the same depressing trend. Alansplodge (talk) 14:02, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Queen's Medical Centre (see comment 17:18, 28 June) was opened by the Queen in 1977 and was until recently Britain's largest hospital. It includes a medical school. 2A00:23C5:C70B:500:ED1E:D467:15F0:EBAE (talk) 14:29, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There goes my knighthood! Alansplodge (talk) 14:32, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, even if you say to her: "Thanks, but I'm at that very cool scientific meeting this year, can this wait for next year?" it's not automatically "off with your head". --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:28, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]