Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 September 22

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September 22

terminology in split ergativity

With split ergativity, such that an intransitive subject declines like an agent for verbs like walk but like a patient for verbs like fall, what are the cases called? Nominative and absolutive? Ergative and accusative? Something else? --Tamfang (talk) 02:02, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

The sketch of Kashmiri in "The Concise Compendium of the World's Major Languages" says that Kashmiri has Nominative, Oblique I, Oblique II, and Agentive cases, with a note "Oblique I provides the direct object ; oblique II and the agentive are used as subject of transitive verb" (not further explained). According to our Kashmiri language article, it has Nominative, Dative, Ergative, and Ablative cases (and Vocative, unlikely to be relevant here). AnonMoos (talk) 04:27, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Actually, that's split intransitive alignment. In that page, the case forms are called "agentive" vs. "patientive". The WALS has "active" vs. "inactive" case. –Austronesier (talk) 15:56, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. —Tamfang (talk) 03:28, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Living outside

I often come across phrases in Wikipedia like "She lives outside Sebastopol, California" in response to which I think "Yes, like a few billion of us". Is this just because I am used to British English? Wouldn't "She lives near Sebastopol, California" better indicate the intended meaning? Or is "outside" okay from an American English point of view?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:26, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Since you clearly understand the intended meaning, what's the problem? Henry^Flower 09:28, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Maybe it comes from the slightly longer 'just outside'. Cambridge Dictionary's "English Grammar Today" column on "outside" writes:

"We use outside or outside of as a preposition to mean ‘not in a particular place, but near it’:

There’s a chair just outside the room opposite.

She works in a software development company just outside of Dublin."

---Sluzzelin talk 09:43, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

In my experience in American English, "outside Town X" means "her house is not within any municipality's jurisdiction but Town X is closest", while "near Town X" would mean "she actually lives in Town Y, but there's no way you've heard of that place so here's a bigger town to give you a general idea". --Khajidha (talk) 10:45, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

It's used in that way in British English too. See [1] (Preposition 1): "Vincennes is just outside Paris". Bazza (talk) 14:34, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Your example is not quite the same, as near as I can tell. I live in the town of Long View, North Carolina. I would describe myself as living near the city of Hickory, North Carolina, but NOT "outside Hickory" because I am within the town limits of Long View. I would only use "outside Hickory" if I lived in the unincorporated part of the county. "Vincennes is outside Paris" is about the location of two municipalities relative to each other. The example here is about a residence in an unspecified place relative to a municipality. --Khajidha (talk) 15:15, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

It depends though. In American English, "Outside" can also be used for "I live in a place you've never heard of, so here's a place you have nearby". For example, if someone asks where you live, one might start with "I live in Long View" and when you get a blank stare or a question like "Where's that?", you might conceivably reply "It's outside Hickory", with the meaning "It's a small place you've never heard of but which is near Hickory". (of course, that presumes someone's heard of Hickory.) The meaning of "outside" a place meaning "near" a place in any and all contexts is well-established in English, and native speakers don't often get confused, except when they want to be smartasses "Everywhere is outside Hickory, hahahahah". --Jayron32 15:45, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If I lived in Vincennes, then I would say that I lived just outside Paris. Similarly, if I lived on the outskirts or beyond of Vincennes, I might say I lived just outside it. (As it happens, I live just outside London ("just" being 35km), although I might also say I live outside London which could mean a wider area; the word "just" seems key there, as pointed out earlier by Sluzzelin.) Your interesting reply highlights that there's other technicalities at play here too, not least the strange (to this British person, at least) concepts of incorporation, US counties, cities and their limits and boundaries: are these important considerations in this sort of discussion there? Bazza (talk) 17:29, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

To me, if I am in a town, I no longer think of myself as being "outside" another one. I think of cities/towns/villages as being near each other, not "outside". --Khajidha (talk) 18:08, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

I guess the word 'just' makes the meaning unambiguous, while writing 'outside City X' can mean something else in certain contexts, as pointed out by Shantavira. Example: "If it is difficult for the disabled to get along roads because people park on pavements inside London, why should it not be difficult for people outside London?"[2] (The Chairman of the Transport Select Committee meant the rest of the country here, on 14 December 2005). ---Sluzzelin talk 18:31, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

I wait for someone to say to me "we're based out of Miami" so that I can reply, "Why, so am I – in fact about as far out of Miami as you can get without a passport." —Tamfang (talk) 03:30, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Productive letter groups

This may have been asked before, but I wouldn't know how to search for it.

There are certain words that can have their first letter replaced with another and still make a valid word. Examples:

• lign - sign
• cry - fry - pry - try
• ball - call - fall - gall - hall - mall - pall - tall - wall.
• bight - eight - fight - light - might - night - right - sight - tight - wight.

I call "-ign", "-ry", "-all" and "-ight" productive letter groups, with values 2, 4, 9 and 10 respectively (or greater if I've missed any candidates).

I seek the letter group that has the greatest productivity. Or the set of equally greatest. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:02, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

PS. I stress I'm interested only in replacement of one letter with another. Bright and fright would not fit into the "-ight" group, but they would belong to the "-right" group. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:24, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Hey JackofOz, I have no idea how to systematically search for it either (a reverse dictionary?) but Scrabble and crossword tools such as [3] may help you root around for this because they usefully group by number of letters. For your ight set, for example, the tool finds 149 words but you only have to look at the five-letter words to fit your single-letter criterion. It suggests 12. [4]. One larger set I found right away: you get 16 three-letter words ending in “in”. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 22:32, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

I'd say -ot would be hard to beat, but not very interesting, the best fit per word length would be more useful. If no-one has a better solution I'll crank up my old XP machine and do a BASIC search.

PS. Why were your PS and 70.67.193.176 's reply not visible on my screen? Now they are. Doug butler (talk) 22:58, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

On the UNIX machine where I'm typing this,

grep '^[a-z]*$' /usr/share/dict/words | # no capitalized or hyphenated words
   grep ... | # no 1-2 letter words
   sed s/./-/ | # eliminate 1st letter
   sort | uniq -c | sort -k 1nr  | # tabulate repetitions
   awk '$1 > 15' | # sufficiently good results only 
   while read count ending  # prepare to format them helpfully
   do
      pat=`echo " $ending" | sed 's/ -/^[a-z]/; s/$/$/'` # construct pattern to find hits on a specific ending
      echo "$count $ending:  " `grep "$pat" /usr/share/dict/words` # list them
   done

produces:

 19 -at:   bat cat eat fat gat hat kat lat mat nat oat pat rat sat tat vat wat yat zat
 18 -an:   ban can dan ean fan gan han kan lan man nan pan ran san tan van wan yan
 17 -ar:   bar car dar ear far gar jar lar mar nar oar par sar tar war yar zar
 16 -ag:   bag cag dag fag gag hag jag lag mag nag rag sag tag vag wag zag
 16 -ain:   bain cain dain fain gain hain lain main nain pain rain sain tain vain wain zain
 16 -am:   aam bam cam dam fam gam ham jam lam nam oam pam ram sam tam yam
 16 -ay:   bay cay day fay gay hay jay kay lay may nay pay ray say tay way
 16 -ot:   bot cot dot fot got hot jot lot mot not pot rot sot tot wot yot
 16 -ow:   bow cow dow fow how jow low mow now pow row sow tow vow wow yow

There are two problems with using this /usr/share/dict/words file. First, on this machine it is a massive word list containing numerous words that most people would not recognize, supposed to have been tabulated from an unabridged dictionary decades ago — for example, kat, aam, gan, etc. etc. And second, the list does not include inflected forms, so if (for example) pluralized words would change the best results, it will not show that.

Still, this is a sort of answer. --174.89.48.182 (talk) 00:07, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Using that script on Collins Scrabble Words CSW15, which includes many inflected forms, gives

19 -ill:   bill cill dill fill gill hill jill kill lill mill nill pill rill sill till vill will yill zill
19 -ills:   bills cills dills fills gills hills jills kills lills mills nills pills rills sills tills vills wills yills zills
18 -as:   aas bas das eas fas gas has kas las mas nas pas ras tas vas was yas zas
18 -at:   bat cat eat fat gat hat kat lat mat nat oat pat qat rat sat tat vat wat
18 -in:   ain bin din fin gin hin jin kin lin pin qin rin sin tin vin win yin zin
18 -ins:   ains bins dins fins gins hins jins kins lins pins qins rins sins tins vins wins yins zins
18 -is:   ais bis cis dis gis his kis lis mis nis ois pis qis sis tis vis wis xis
17 -ag:   bag cag dag fag gag hag jag lag mag nag rag sag tag vag wag yag zag
17 -ags:   bags cags dags fags gags hags jags lags mags nags rags sags tags vags wags yags zags
17 -ang:   bang cang dang fang gang hang kang lang mang nang pang rang sang tang vang wang yang
17 -ap:   bap cap dap fap gap hap jap lap map nap pap rap sap tap wap yap zap
17 -ats:   bats cats eats fats gats hats kats lats mats nats oats pats qats rats tats vats wats
17 -aw:   caw daw faw gaw haw jaw kaw law maw naw paw raw saw taw vaw waw yaw
17 -ay:   bay cay day fay gay hay jay kay lay may nay pay ray say tay way yay
17 -ays:   bays cays days fays gays hays jays kays lays mays nays pays rays says tays ways yays
17 -ine:   aine bine cine dine eine fine kine line mine nine pine rine sine tine vine wine zine
16 -aps:   baps caps daps gaps haps japs laps maps naps paps raps saps taps waps yaps zaps
16 -aws:   caws daws faws gaws haws jaws kaws laws maws paws raws saws taws vaws waws yaws
16 -ee:   bee cee dee fee gee jee lee mee nee pee ree see tee vee wee zee
16 -et:   bet fet get het jet ket let met net pet ret set tet vet wet yet
16 -it:   ait bit cit dit fit git hit kit lit nit pit rit sit tit wit zit
16 -its:   aits bits cits dits fits gits hits kits lits nits pits rits sits tits wits zits
16 -on:   bon con don eon fon gon hon ion kon mon non oon son ton won yon
16 -ow:   bow cow dow how jow kow low mow now pow row sow tow vow wow yow
16 -ows:   bows cows dows hows jows kows lows mows nows pows rows sows tows vows wows yows

There's a more recent CSW19, but I don't have immediate access to that. The more recent CSW19 gives the same result. Bazza (talk) 10:40, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

The ending -yatt is remarkably productive for names: Byatt; Gyatt; Hyatt; Myatt; Pyatt; Wyatt.  --Lambiam 12:15, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

The answer you're looking for may be ILL with 19 words (bill, cill, dill, fill, gill, hill, jill, kill, lill, mill, nill, pill, rill, sill, till, vill, will, yill, zill). Otherwise here's a list of stumps from an obsolete Scrabble dictionary. I've omitted plurals and listed by word length:

4: -ILL (19); -ANG, -INE (16); -ARE, -ENT, -EST, -ITE, -ORE (15)

5: -IGHT (14); -OWED (13); -AKER, -ARED (12); -ATER, -AWED -ERRY, -IVER (11)

6: (uninflected) -INGLE (10), -ALLET, -ANGLE, -IDDLE, ILLET, -UDDLE (8)

6: (else) ED, ER, ING): -APPED (15), -AGGED (14), -ASHED, -ILLED (13); -ARING, -ASTER, -ATTER, -AWING, -IPPED, -OCKED, -OWING (12) Doug butler (talk) 17:11, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

• You've all exceeded my expectations. Thanks very much indeed. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:35, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

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