Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 January 20
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January 20[edit]
Help translating llengua pròpia[edit]
There is an ongoing editing conflict in the page Valencian language about how to translate llengua pròpia from Catalan to English. In Spanish the equivalent expression is lengua propia. I don't know what the best translation is, but I'm positive that proper language is an unfaithful and misleading translation. Can anyone help? --Jotamar (talk) 17:59, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- How about "own" language? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:17, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- The other party rejects own, see his edit summary. --Jotamar (talk) 18:58, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- What user:Taurus Littrow says is:
Regards, --Jotamar (talk) 19:05, 20 January 2021 (UTC)"pròpia" CAN be translated as "proper", although this translation is less common. Anyway, "own language" (in this context) is bad English.
- Well, I already changed it to "native language" and added a note saying that this term has no equivalent in English (which is true). As to "own language", I believe it must be preceded by a possessive pronoun (e.g., "his own language"). But we better ask the opinion of a native English speaker. Anyway, a previous wording (which I changed several months ago) said "official language", which was plainly wrong and confusing to boot. Taurus Littrow (talk) 19:14, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- "Native language" is probably clearer than "own language", though why you think that's "broken English" is hard to figure. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:16, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- I think in context the phrase would be something like The own language of the Valencian Community is Valencian, which I definitely agree is awkward English (for more than one reason, actually). I think this is one of those cases where the easiest solutions in English are likely to brush up against sensibilities. --Trovatore (talk) 21:23, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Rather than your sentence, a possible wording is The Valencian Community declares Valencian to be its "own language". --Jotamar (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- I believe that the English term must be universal, so we could use it in any context. We can't say "own language" in one sentence, and "native language" in another. Taurus Littrow (talk) 18:25, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
- Rather than your sentence, a possible wording is The Valencian Community declares Valencian to be its "own language". --Jotamar (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Another note here: Anglophone readers (well, Americans anyway) are likely to misunderstand the reference to the Valencian Community, as "the foo community" has become a standard combining form. In Spain, it apparently refers not to a sociocultural "identity group" but to an actual semi-autonomous region with juridicial existence. I suggest that that be made explicit; it's wikilinked at first occurrence but you can't count on people following links if they already think they know what the text is saying. --Trovatore (talk) 21:32, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- The name Valencian community is itself the result of political compromise, as other names are controversial for different reasons. --Jotamar (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, the term "Community" here has two meanings; one is the socio-ethnic group and the other is the political subdivisions of Spain. Akin to what may be called "provinces" or "states" or "counties" or "departments" in other countries, the main subdivisions of Spain are known as the Autonomous communities of Spain. Spain itself is a plurinational country, made up of many different ethnicities and nationalities that have lived in the same geography for much longer than Spain has been Spain. It is akin to how the United Kingdom contains within it four distinct nationalities (English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish), each with its own distinct country within the UK, similarly Spain consists of a number of autonomous communities within Spain. The Valencian community (little c) largely lives in the Valencian Community (big C), but of course is a person of Valencian heritage moves to another part of Spain, they would still be Valencian, but living in Madrid or whatever. That's why the language here can get confusing. --Jayron32 16:47, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
- The name Valencian community is itself the result of political compromise, as other names are controversial for different reasons. --Jotamar (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- I think in context the phrase would be something like The own language of the Valencian Community is Valencian, which I definitely agree is awkward English (for more than one reason, actually). I think this is one of those cases where the easiest solutions in English are likely to brush up against sensibilities. --Trovatore (talk) 21:23, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- "Native language" is probably clearer than "own language", though why you think that's "broken English" is hard to figure. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:16, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I already changed it to "native language" and added a note saying that this term has no equivalent in English (which is true). As to "own language", I believe it must be preceded by a possessive pronoun (e.g., "his own language"). But we better ask the opinion of a native English speaker. Anyway, a previous wording (which I changed several months ago) said "official language", which was plainly wrong and confusing to boot. Taurus Littrow (talk) 19:14, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- A possibility, though perhaps not entirely satisfactory, might be "distinctive language". Deor (talk) 22:11, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- "intrinsic"? -- 2603:6081:1C00:1187:100B:4F20:7E4E:A4F0 (talk) 22:26, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Perhaps, "the language belonging to the Valencian Community is Valencian". --Lambiam 22:28, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- "The language native to the Valencian autonomous region is Valencian." or "The local language of the Valencian autonomous region is Valencian" -- Elphion (talk) 23:31, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- "Valencian is the native language of the autonomous region of the same name." --Khajidha (talk) 16:54, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
- Or "the Valencian autonomous region is named after the local language." --Khajidha (talk) 16:55, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
- There are three reasons why this doesn't work. The statute refers to a community, not a region. In Valencian, the name of the region is València, the community is Comunitat Valenciana, and the language is valenciano. Finally, both the community and the language are named after the region, not the other way around. --Lambiam 01:39, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Lambiam Just a minor clarification: valenciano is the Spanish word; in Valencian/Catalan you say "valencià". Taurus Littrow (talk) 10:44, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I was mistaken. I was looking at the sentence whose translation is sought in the text of the Statute conferring autonomy, which is written in Catalan. --Lambiam 12:52, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Lambiam Just a minor clarification: valenciano is the Spanish word; in Valencian/Catalan you say "valencià". Taurus Littrow (talk) 10:44, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- There are three reasons why this doesn't work. The statute refers to a community, not a region. In Valencian, the name of the region is València, the community is Comunitat Valenciana, and the language is valenciano. Finally, both the community and the language are named after the region, not the other way around. --Lambiam 01:39, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- "The language native to the Valencian autonomous region is Valencian." or "The local language of the Valencian autonomous region is Valencian" -- Elphion (talk) 23:31, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Regional language? 2601:648:8202:96B0:0:0:0:313A (talk) 04:49, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
- "The language pertaining to the Valencian Community is Valencian"? –Austronesier (talk) 17:15, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
- Then why not simply, "The language of the Valencian Community"? The term propi has more the sense of "belonging to" than "pertaining to". --Lambiam 01:39, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Lambiam Well, we must translate the word "propi" somehow; we can't just leave it out. Also, the English equivalent must be an adjective and precede the word "language" (e.g., "native language"). The term must be universal, so we could use it in any kind of sentence. Taurus Littrow (talk) 10:27, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- There are various theories of translation, and there are some differences between the practices of translating official documents and literary texts, but in either case the common practice is for the translator to try to preserve, as much as possible, the meaning of the original text in its translation. That is obviously not always possible for puns, or rhyming poetry, but that plays no role for official documents with legal significance. The best practice is often not a word-by-word translation, but may entail leaving out some words of the original text, and inserting some others. The German sentence "Das wissen wir ja doch nun schon" is best translated as "We already know that", leaving out "ja", "doch", and "nun". Any attempt to insert translations leads to a strange sentence or one with undue emphasis (like "Of course we already know this really now", which one would not normally utter in the same situation, and in fact detracts from the implied slight irritation in the original at the redundancy of being told what one already knows). For literary translations, preserving the register, mood and connotations is important; not so with official texts, but there one does not want to introduce connotations that are missing in the original. For example, one should not translate the innocent English text "We must do some tests before we decide on the final solution" in German as "Wir müssen einige Tests durchführen, bevor wir uns für die Endlösung entscheiden". The adjective native has unintended connotations when used in “native language”. Valencian is the native language of people born to Valencian-speaking parents. When not referring to a person's birth language, it generally refers to the language of a Native or Aboriginal people, not to Europeans. Almost all other solutions proposed suffer from undue emphasis. (This language is ours, and ours alone!) --Lambiam 13:42, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Lambiam I'll comment only the latest part of your statement, as far as "native" is concerned: It's just one of the proposed translations. Obviously not perfect. I'm ready to listen to all the options. Obviously not as drastic as skipping the adjective altogether. Thanks. Taurus Littrow (talk) 14:05, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- If you want to preserve the legal sense (in this statutory context), maybe the best option is to write "Valencian is an official language of the Valencian Community". Other proposed solutions do not convey the sense of being official imparted by the phrase llengua pròpia to English readers. If you think retaining the legal sense is not that important, I do not understand why skipping pròpia is so drastic. --Lambiam 14:58, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Lambiam "Oficial language" is already mentioned elsewhere in the Statute (the Spanish term is lengua oficial), so translating lengua propia as "oficial language" would only create confusion: we'd have two different terms in Spanish, but only one term in English. To get an idea of what lengua propia is, you can carefully read this article. Note that Spanish is lengua oficial but not lengua propia, in neither of the autonomous communities. P.S. Correction: Spanish (Castilian) is lengua propia in Navarra, along with Basque. Taurus Littrow (talk) 16:33, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- That is why I wrote "an official language", not "the official language". --Lambiam 17:56, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Lambiam Still very confusing to me. The two terms must be clearly distinct. Oh well, thanks for your suggestions anyway. Taurus Littrow (talk) 18:07, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Lengua propia refers to the following definition, contained in the Universal Declaration of Linguistic Rights: «la denominación lengua propia de un territorio hace referencia al idioma de la comunidad históricamente establecida en este espacio». In the English text of the Declaration in the UNESCO Digital Library, the corresponding sentence is:
The term language specific to a territory refers to the language of the community historically established in such a space.
[Italics in the original] Hope this helps. --Lambiam 19:50, 22 January 2021 (UTC)- It sounds good, although not perfect (it's not an adjective). Taurus Littrow (talk) 13:55, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
- Lengua propia refers to the following definition, contained in the Universal Declaration of Linguistic Rights: «la denominación lengua propia de un territorio hace referencia al idioma de la comunidad históricamente establecida en este espacio». In the English text of the Declaration in the UNESCO Digital Library, the corresponding sentence is:
- Lambiam Still very confusing to me. The two terms must be clearly distinct. Oh well, thanks for your suggestions anyway. Taurus Littrow (talk) 18:07, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- That is why I wrote "an official language", not "the official language". --Lambiam 17:56, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Lambiam "Oficial language" is already mentioned elsewhere in the Statute (the Spanish term is lengua oficial), so translating lengua propia as "oficial language" would only create confusion: we'd have two different terms in Spanish, but only one term in English. To get an idea of what lengua propia is, you can carefully read this article. Note that Spanish is lengua oficial but not lengua propia, in neither of the autonomous communities. P.S. Correction: Spanish (Castilian) is lengua propia in Navarra, along with Basque. Taurus Littrow (talk) 16:33, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- If you want to preserve the legal sense (in this statutory context), maybe the best option is to write "Valencian is an official language of the Valencian Community". Other proposed solutions do not convey the sense of being official imparted by the phrase llengua pròpia to English readers. If you think retaining the legal sense is not that important, I do not understand why skipping pròpia is so drastic. --Lambiam 14:58, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think "native" would be mistaken for meaning "non-European indiginous" in this case. If you look at the definition given for native (as opposed to the capitalised Native), the general sense is "originating in a particular area". It doesn't specifically mention language, but I think if you used it in this case it would be understood as "the language of the community historically established in such a space". Iapetus (talk) 13:16, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
- Lambiam I'll comment only the latest part of your statement, as far as "native" is concerned: It's just one of the proposed translations. Obviously not perfect. I'm ready to listen to all the options. Obviously not as drastic as skipping the adjective altogether. Thanks. Taurus Littrow (talk) 14:05, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- There are various theories of translation, and there are some differences between the practices of translating official documents and literary texts, but in either case the common practice is for the translator to try to preserve, as much as possible, the meaning of the original text in its translation. That is obviously not always possible for puns, or rhyming poetry, but that plays no role for official documents with legal significance. The best practice is often not a word-by-word translation, but may entail leaving out some words of the original text, and inserting some others. The German sentence "Das wissen wir ja doch nun schon" is best translated as "We already know that", leaving out "ja", "doch", and "nun". Any attempt to insert translations leads to a strange sentence or one with undue emphasis (like "Of course we already know this really now", which one would not normally utter in the same situation, and in fact detracts from the implied slight irritation in the original at the redundancy of being told what one already knows). For literary translations, preserving the register, mood and connotations is important; not so with official texts, but there one does not want to introduce connotations that are missing in the original. For example, one should not translate the innocent English text "We must do some tests before we decide on the final solution" in German as "Wir müssen einige Tests durchführen, bevor wir uns für die Endlösung entscheiden". The adjective native has unintended connotations when used in “native language”. Valencian is the native language of people born to Valencian-speaking parents. When not referring to a person's birth language, it generally refers to the language of a Native or Aboriginal people, not to Europeans. Almost all other solutions proposed suffer from undue emphasis. (This language is ours, and ours alone!) --Lambiam 13:42, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Lambiam Well, we must translate the word "propi" somehow; we can't just leave it out. Also, the English equivalent must be an adjective and precede the word "language" (e.g., "native language"). The term must be universal, so we could use it in any kind of sentence. Taurus Littrow (talk) 10:27, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Then why not simply, "The language of the Valencian Community"? The term propi has more the sense of "belonging to" than "pertaining to". --Lambiam 01:39, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- "The language pertaining to the Valencian Community is Valencian"? –Austronesier (talk) 17:15, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
- What about "The Valencian Community's own language is Valencian"? Alternatively, "The Valencian Community has its own language, Valencian", "The Valencian Community has its own Valencian language", or "The Valencian Community's own language is Valencian"? It seems to me that "own" is a fine translation, it just needs to go along with a possessive. --Amble (talk) 18:26, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
