Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2007 October 17

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October 17

buying miles on Ebay -- the secret to cheap flights?

I saw this auction for Delta skymiles--just an example, my question isn't specific to skymiles--and I realized that buying miles is apparently the cheapest way to travel. Anyone have experience getting a ticket through miles bought on Ebay? What would be some forseeable problems if I tried to buy 80,000 miles from multiple auctions and redeemed them for a cheap ticket to Africa?

Thanks.

128.54.77.38 00:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

From the seller's phrasing I wonder if it's in fact illegal to sell miles? He refers to what he's selling as "an email", with the 30,000 miles thrown in as a "free gift". So that might be a complication, or else maybe his recasting of the situation is actually legal. I have no idea. --Masamage ♫ 00:36, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I doubt it's illegal - but I bet it's contrary to eBay's policies. If that's the case then you have zero buyer-protection in the event that the promised air-miles don't appear. SteveBaker 00:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I took a look at the listing and I think it's highly dubious. Ask yourself: Why is he so carefully telling you that ALL you are buying is an utterly worthless email - with this large and valuable "free gift"? That just screams "SCAM!". I bet that when the PIN number that he sends you doesn't work, he can duck out of his responsibilities by pointing out that you got your email as promised and the 'free gift' is probably not covered by PayPal/eBay refunds anyway. He claims "I have excellent feedback and been a member of Ebay for several yrs!!!"...well, no. That's a lie. Check his feedback - he's sold exactly two things on eBay - ever (an iPhone and a David Yurman bracelet) and he's only been a member for 1 year and 10 months. WORST OF ALL: One other listing for Delta Skymiles said "Please note Delta charges a fee for transferring miles - NOT included in this auction."...so this may well be nothing like as good a deal as you think! How much is this transfer going to cost? Why didn't this seller warn you about that? I definitely wouldn't risk this a couple of hundred bucks on this kind of thing. SteveBaker 01:17, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Note that Delta's SkyMiles Rules & Conditions ([1]) specifically bars the sale or barter of mileage:

"The sale or barter of mileage credit, vouchers, Award Certificates, or Award Tickets by SkyMiles members is prohibited. Delta will terminate or deduct mileage from the account of any member who violates this rule. Award Certificates or Tickets obtained through prohibited sale or barter transactions are VOID, invalid for travel, and will be confiscated. Persons trying to use such tickets will not be permitted to travel unless they purchase a ticket from Delta at the applicable fare."

I would expect other reward-mile-type programs would have similar rules, but you should check the specific rules of each program to be sure. While it's not illegal for him to sell (or for you to buy) the miles, Delta is apt not to let redeem them. I strongly suspect the "I'm buying an email and getting the miles as as a free gift" gambit won't fool anyone, should Delta actually suspect something fishy is going on. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Aha! That explains why the SkyMiles are "A Free Gift" - that gets him out of the "sale or barter" clause. SteveBaker 01:20, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Plane or Train?

I travel between New York City and Washington DC quite often.(about once or twice per month) I almost always fly from Newark Airport to got there. Recently however, it has gotten to be very frustrating because I have to get there at least an hour early, and sometimes the plane is delayed. I was just wondering, is it better to take the Acela train? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.172.221.158 (talk) 00:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I couldn't tell you what's right in your situation, since I don't know how far you are/ how far you are going from the train/airport staions, and I don't know what kind of luggage you take. I can tell you that our article on the Acela Express notes that typical transit time between DC and NYC is 2 hours, 48 minutes. --Ybbor^Talk 01:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course, trains can be delayed too, but from what I read on Usenet, the Acela has a decent reputation, and when I've used it myself it's been on time or only mildly late. It's also a lot more comfortable than plane seats nowadays. Many people prefer to take the regional trains, which are not that much slower and noticeably cheaper, but that's a personal choice. Note that if you use Newark Airport because your starting point is nearer Newark than Manhattan, you can save some time by boarding the Acela at the Penn Station in Newark instead of the one in New York. --Anonymous, 02:01 UTC, October 17, 2007.

• The Wall Street Journal recommends Amtrak, pointing out that it has very good on-time numbers, it's safer, and it's faster. As a result of these things, it's also popular -- more people ride Amtrak from DC to New York than fly on all airlines combined! And if you're into saving the environment, the all-electric Acela line produces a tiny fraction of the greenhouse gases that an airplane flight does. --M@rēino 21:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Tylenol question

Per Tylenol, it says that children have a higher tolerance of acetaminophen than adults because of their larger liver and kidney to body size ratio. However, on Tylenol packages, the maximum recommended adult dosage is frequently higher than that for children. Is the packaging wrong?

Thanks. Acceptable 02:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Best to put questions in separate postings when they aren't much related. I edited your question into two parts.

For many drugs the correct dose should be calibrated according to the patient's body weight -- or some other measure of size, depending on the drug. Since children are smaller than adults, they have a lower recommended dose. For further detail on this you should consult a doctor or pharmacist, of course, not the reference desk. --Anonymous, 09:52 UTC, October 17.

Heroin/morphine question

Secondly, on a completely different note, how does a heroin/morphine high feel like exactly? I don't ever plan on trying, so I'll never have the experiential knowledge of it, but I'm still curious. I've heard of it being described as "...a 5-hour long orgasm." Is this accurate?

Thanks. Acceptable 02:02, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Isaac Asimov was given morphine for a kidney stone attack in 1950, and wrote about it in his autobiography In Memory Yet Green (chapter 49, section 24):

There they gave me a hefty shot of morphine, and in a little while the pain left. More than the pain left. All my troubles, all my concerns, all my worries left. I lay there, I remember, facing the wall, in complete peace. It wasn't euphoria; it was better than euphoria; it was quiet, calm nirvana. I didn't feel bored. I didn't have to think. I just lay there at rest. Neither before nor since have I ever felt so free of all the endless indignities of life.

Gertrude sat at the bedside and I, with my back to her, felt her holding my hand. I don't know how much time passed, but a nurse came in and asked Gertrude if she would care to eat and assured her I would be all right. Gertrude left. I did not know this at the time; Gertrude told me of it afterward. All I know was that after a while, I was conscious that Gertrude was not holding my hand. I wondered if she were still there, but it seemed too much trouble to turn around. I felt only the smallest, most distant pang of regret at the thought that she might not be there, and then I left that go, too.

The memory of that one time under morphine convinces me that I will have to be under equivalent pain before I ever accept another shot.

--Anonymous, 10:13 UTC, October 17, 2007.

It starts off with energy, clear thought, ability to do things and be hard working. As the world gets organised you slow down and relax. Deeply. You observe. then the observation becomes yourself and all is right. Then you may sleep. Took it once and it was so good: Never again. Serious. Never take something like that twice. Paul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.166.234 (talk) 11:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I've had morphine before when my appendix was removed and had a subsequent infection. I noticed nothing but a odd "rush" (but not really pleasurable at all) sort of reaction after it was injected, and maybe a tendency to want to sleep more (this could also have been an effect of sitting in the bed all day though). It worked pretty well for the pain, though. It might be a subjective opioid receptor sort of deal, I've also taken hydrocodone and had no effect that would make me think I took anything other than really strong ibuprofen. -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 12:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

There are probably different levels. If you're my grandma, morphine feels like a medical emergency; some people are really intensely allergic to it. --Masamage ♫ 14:22, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

When I had morphine, it was the middle of the night and I'd been unable to sleep due to frequent and intense intenstinal pain. I remember getting the shot, then the pain was utterly gone. I had periods where I must have been asleep interspersed with periods of semi-lucidity; I remember suddanly being aware that I'd not been asleep, but had been staring at the wall for the past period of time. Time, in fact, pretty much lost meaning - I had no way of telling if it'd been 20 minutes or 2 hours. I have no idea how long I was in the hospital, except that it was almost dawn when I got out. My boyfriend (who drove me there, I couldn't drive doubled over in pain) says that I didn't sleep any longer than about 15, 20 minutes or so at a time, so that's probably a decent estimate of how long the stretches were. It wasn't pleasureable and nothing like an orgasm - it's kind of like how, when you have REALLY good sex, after you orgasm, you kinda don't want to move much. I tend to fall asleep post-orgasm, and I tended to fall asleep for short bits of time on morphine, so that's another similarity.

What 81.86 seems to be describing, on the other hand, is heroin, which is usually taken to get a high rather than to numb pain. I suspect the concentrations, the method of production, et cetera differ vastly to produce a different effect. But yeah, Morphine isn't worth it as recreation unless you're very stressed and in a lot of pain and just want to relax for a few hours. And even in that case, pot's probably easier to get and I suspect it works just as well (I have lung issues so I've never smoked anything, but I've seen others on pot and they seem much more relaxed). Kuronue | Talk 04:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• I've taken heroin for pleasure and been given morphine for pain.While there is some similarity in the feelings,they are not quite alike.How much of the difference with the morphine was due to the relief at being out of excruciating pain I don't know.Hitting up heroin was like a quiet orgasm,a rush of pure pleasure followed by a golden glow that made you feel invincible.Except ,it was damn hard to get out of your seat to do anything(known as "gouching out")It was something I liked better than almost anything else in the world.On heroin nothing else mattered.The rush is both a physical pleasure and a mental one. I'd substituted all my problems into just one;getting the next fix..Stopping being an addict was the most horrible experience ever.Please,don't try it.--hotclaws 10:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I've never taken any drugs or been high, and I'm curious- how exactly is that a horrible experience? You're in total bliss when you're high, and yeah life sucks when you're not but life sucks anyway. Why do people talk so ominously and threateningly about past drug addictions? --ffroth 04:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

You've never consumed alcohol or coffee/tea? Or any medicinal drugs? Problem is that the term is often used only for illegal drugs, as if that somehow makes them inherently different. To answer your question, it depends very much on which drug and how much and for how long. Without specifying that, you can't get a good concise answer. DirkvdM 11:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Opiates (opium, heroin, morphine, methadone - actually I should say opioids) are an antidote to pain and, interestingly, the reverse is also true. If someone has taken an overdose, the antidote is pain. Slap them on the skin with the open hand - that will cause pain but not (serious) injury. So if you take it when you're in pain, the pain will absorb part of it. For medical purposes, there's no need to administer more than that. What the ones who had it administered in hospital said here is probably some side-effect. In 1950, when Asimov got his dose, the dosage was probably less precise, more like 'at least enough', which comes down to an 'overdose' (I mean in terms of what is medically required, not in the lethal sense). I believe that opiates directly affect the (the?) pleasure centre in the brain, so it makes sense that it feels good. Also note that the effect of alcohol depends on the quantity (an upper in low quantities and a downer in higher quantities) and maybe something like that is also the case for opiates. And also, the effect of a drug can depend on the mood. Although I can imagine that for a large dose of an opiate that will no longer be a factor. DirkvdM 17:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Most Powerful Handgun

Hey All,

Which commercially avaliable handgun would be the most powerful in terms of stopping power. The .44 Magnum as suggested in the film "Dirty Harry" is suggested, however wikipedia claims in the article that it is not, Does anyone have any ideas? Also comparitively could a gun with a lower stopping power loaded with a .50 Action Express for exmaple have more stopping power than say a model with a higher stopping power loaded with a weaker kind of bullet

Cheers Catman503 02:06, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The .50 AE Magnum is generally considered the most powerful handgun cartridge, although more obscure, larger and potentially more powerful rounds (in terms of stopping power) exists-such as the Nitro Express. A hollowpoint would add to the stopping power when fired at an unarmoured target, as the hollowpoint fragments upon impact, creating a much more painful experience for the recipient. For the second part, I don't think guns have any rated stopping power, but instead, stopping power is an unofficial measurement of a bullet. Acceptable 02:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks like .500 S&W Magnum although a handgun which might have existed (Triple Action Thunder) that fired a .50 BMG machine gun round. Rmhermen 02:55, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I saw a video on youtube of a custom handgun that fired a .50 BMG. Some guy volunteered to test it out, aimed, and when it fired it knocked him back and the gun flew out of his hand. -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 12:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

"Stopping power" is not an exact science. Muzzle energy is a function of both the round and the gun (larger charge = more energy, longer barrel = more energy). A handgun with a full-length barrel will do much more damage with the same ammunition that a handgun with a short barrel. FiggyBee 05:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah i see, Well concerning the various models of handguns what would be the most powerful in terms of pentration and velocity? 203.173.131.12 02:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

That would be a matter for endless debate. My problems in trying to answer this question are several. I suppose that by "handgun" you mean "gun like you see people fire with one hand on TV", but there lots of kinds. The most "powerful" in foot-pounds is going to be a single-shot chambered for a large rifle cartridge, like the .460 Weatherby or the 50-caliber machine gun round, but these will not have the highest velocity. A small round propelled by a large charge will have the highest velocity, like a varmint round. As for penetration, that will depend to a great extent on the bullet. A bullet can be designed to mushroom or fragment on impact, or go right through the target like it wasn't even there. If you want "stopping power", you don't want penetration, necessarily; you want all the energy in the bullet to be delivered to the target, and that only happens if the bullet comes to rest within it.

Of course, all the talk about "stopping power" of a particular round or weapon is moot. Shot placement is by far the most important factor in that, so that accuracy is really the most important factor, and that depends on the combination of shooter and weapon. Annie Oakley, arguably the best shot ever, would probably not have done so well shooting a .44 Magnum, but she could choose which eye to shoot you in at 100 yards with her gun. --Milkbreath 11:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I know nothing about weapons but... what about the IMI Desert Eagle? --Taraborn 15:54, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

You need to understand the concept of a cartridge. The model of gun doesn't matter (much= barrel length can influence velocity)- it's the specification for the ammo it uses that determines how powerful it is. Friday (talk) 16:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Given what's said above, this means that all the various assault rifles chambered for the standard 5.56mm NATO round are pretty much similar in terms of power and behavior right? There are difference in barrel, bolt and etc.. but at the end, it mainly the bullet itself that places the emphasis right? Acceptable 21:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Right. NATO ball doesn't much care what weapon it's coming out of in terms of "power", though a longer barrel will give more velocity, up to a limit (and greater accuracy, as a rule and all else being equal). I'm sure there is an optimum twist, but I'm too lazy to look it up. A gas-operated rifle will take a little zing out of the round compared to a bolt-action, but not enough to make an important difference. (When you say "bullet", I'm guessing you mean "cartridge". The bullet is the thing that flies downrange.) It's the weight of the bullet (and to a much lesser extent its shape), the amount of propellant, and the time the propellant has to work that dictate what you might call "power", regardless of the weapon, for the most part. There are relatively minor factors like the loss you get between the cylinder and barrel in a revolver. --Milkbreath 23:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

capital punishment

why pen is broken on capital punishment —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.163.48.206 (talk) 07:51, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry? can you clarify the question. Richard Avery 07:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Just a guess, but maybe 122 is asking about a practice I've seen in movies, where upon signing a document with a quill one smashes the tip into the parchment destroying the nib. I always imagined it was a sort of superstitious act; that the pen had become an instrument of some momentous force and should not be used again trivially. In the case of a death warrant, this would be doubly true. The question suggests that this is still done with modern pens. I wonder. --Milkbreath 10:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[2] shows it is still carried out in India, although this will soon be replaced - "Time is not far when, while pronouncing a death sentence, a Judge in India will click a computer mouse instead of breaking the nib of a pen" - from Pronouncing verdict online likely soon —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nanonic (talk • contribs) 18:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Human nature being what it is, I expect they'll take to smashing the mouse. Mice are cheap. Xn4 13:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't remember what it's called, but there is a phenomenon in anthropology where in certain societies the object that caused death or injury has to be punished. The pen used to sign a death warrent or sentence of death has killed a person, so could be seen as dangerous. DuncanHill 12:58, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

interesting. I would say that the pen is a manifestation of the bureaucracy that killed the victim, and as being a possession of the signer, the signer punishes himself and the society he serves by proxy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.217.195.89 (talk) 16:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I think Duncan's thinking of Deodand. Lisiate 01:49, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Feeling of waves

Why is it that whenever I lie in bed after going on a boat or swimming at the beach that day, I can faintly feel the rocking of waves as if I'm still in the water or on the boat? --Candy-Panda 07:55, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The common name for it is sea legs. New Scientist's Last Word printed a Q&A about it which you can find here. Mal de debarquement is a much rarer but far more serious condition. — Matt Eason ^{(Talk • Contribs)} 09:55, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Over time, your brain adapts to most forms of continuous stimulus, whether it is sound, smell, motion, or what-have-you. When that stimulus is suddenly removed, you often perceive the opposite stimulus (so if you've been oscillating around on waves all day, when the oscillation stops, you perceive the anti-phase oscillation that your brain has been using to cancel the real oscillation).

I once got a very dramatic demonstration of this when I rode the entire way down on the Mount Washington Cog Railway seated on the tailgate of the train. After spending those forty minutes puttering down the mountain at five miles per hour watching the scenery go backwards by me, when the train finally stopped, I had the overwhelming sensation that we were progressing back up the mountain at that same snail's pace.

Atlant 12:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

You can practice this at home in your own living room. Spin around on the spot just moving just your feet (stretching arms out optional) then suddenly stop. The room will continue to spin and you will feel dizzy. That's the miracle of science. :P Lanfear's Bane 15:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I dunno - stretching your arms out isn't very scientific - it's just a small step from that to you yelling "Wwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!" while you are doing it - and then we all have to edge slowly towards the door, whistling tunelessly as we go. SteveBaker 20:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

A number of researchers, starting with one G.M. Stratton in 1896, have done experiments where subjects wore devices that reversed their vision -- and this, too, proves to be something that people can adapt to, at least partially. And again, there is a reverse adaptation period when returning to normal vision. Here's a short note giving a reference to Stratton's paper and some later ones. Here's a paper (in PDF) that discusses what goes on in the brain when that happens. --Anonymous, 23:53 UTC, October 17, 2007.

• On a perhaps-related note, I recently read that an anti-IED scheme where a soldier in a trailing vehicle controls a drone vehicle at the front of the convoy through some kind of remote control was problematic in that the differing inputs that his/her eyes and inner ear were receiving led to serious nausea. --Sean 00:31, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's make it more scientific then, write down the method and apparatus and you can be the control. I am sure we can get funding for this, or white coats at the least. The Diverse Effects of 'Sticking out your arms and yelling Wee!' in relation to Human Centrifugal Action. Lanfear's Bane 09:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I feel an Ig Nobel Prize headed our way for sure!

In the meantime, with regard to the anti-IED device driver, yes, humans fare quite badly when their visual stimulus is not well-synchronized with their inner ear stimulus. This is the principal cause of sea-sickness and explains why you often feel lousy in your cabin (where you feel the boat shifting but can't see any obvious effect) and feel better out on deck (where the horizon shifts in synchronism with what your inner ear is telling you).

Atlant 12:43, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh - well if there are going to be white coats...you hadn't mentioned white coats...then that's an ENTIRELY different matter. Any activity whatever that can be performed while wearing a nice crisp white lab coat is OBVIOUSLY science. (White coats that are dirty, full of acid burns and scorch marks with suspiciously large amounts of blood splatter don't count - then you are straying suspiciously close to the realms of "mad science" - which is another ENTIRELY different matter.) SteveBaker 19:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Strife

I have been playing some old games recently, like Strife, but they do not run smoothly on my pc, although I have plenty ram, how do i alocate more ram to games? thanks12.191.136.3 11:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem is not RAM - you have plenty to run and old game. The problem is the operating system. I think you will have more help on the computer reference desk. Jon513 12:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Probably you should download something called 'ZDoom' which has an updated version of Strife that should take good advantage of modern graphics hardware. SteveBaker 14:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

You might also like DOSBox. --Mdwyer 17:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

LSD: Depletes what from my system?

What nutrients do I need the day after taking LSD? Are there any vitamins or supplements that the body craves after a trip? 24.249.210.2 16:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Nothing, from reading I've done on LSD in the last few minutes on the web. What makes you think that LSD depletes anything from your system? --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:34, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

"Food" is a good one - the stress of hallucinating may cause you to use for energy than you usually do..

Isn't this medical advice?87.102.123.108 17:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Try some reality. I used to drink heavily after LSD as I tried to readjust to the world. This is not medical advice so shove your moaning. Paul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.86.166.234 (talk) 17:45, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

LSD itself doesn't deplete anything (that i know of or recall) but depending on what you do during the experience you may need to get yourself back on track the next day (eating habits, etc). As a general rule, I'd say Gatorade is a good thing after you put any drugs or alcohol in your body. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.155.80.115 (talk) 18:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

LSD depletes Serotonin from your body's system, as it binds to the chemical compound. After a while, you'll feel realllyyyy depressed, although it IS against my belief to use drugs, I have no problem with this question. Oh, and by the way, go see a psychiatrist/ doctor, pal. LSD has been illegal for a lonnnngggggg time. ♥ECH3LON♥ 22:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there supposed to be a connection between those last two sentences? DirkvdM 17:57, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to all for your answers. I think I must have started early....I'm seeing elongated words, E's turning into 3's, and soapboxes floating in front of me stating the obvious in a patronizing tone. I'd better turn on some Radiohead and chill out.24.249.210.2 14:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Reminds me of my first mushroom trip, which I had on a tropical beach. After half an hour I started seeing these lights flickering in the surf and I went "wow, the trip is starting". Next day I discovered that that was real. It's algae or something that light up in the surf. :) DirkvdM 17:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Fantasy Congress

I am currently participating in a Fantasy Congress league. Im looking for a way to find what legislation is going to be voted on a day or two before it acctually happens so I can adjust my roster accordingly. There are serious bragging rights at stake here so if anyone can help me out it would be greatly appreciated.--ChesterMarcol 22:22, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe check out Roll Call? [3] Recury 18:35, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• If the bragging rights are really serious, hire a lobbyist.  :) --M@rēino 21:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I already dominate fantasy football, baseball, and even death pool so my friends are just trying to find a fantasy sport that they can beat me at. There must be some kind of schedule used in congress, or do they just show up and talk about random bills?--ChesterMarcol 00:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The Democratic and Republican leaderships of the House weekly floor briefings, which you can find access via the House Press Gallery. I've only found daily briefings for the Senate. Note that schedules in Congress can change very quickly, and it's often unclear on Monday what will be happening on Wednesday and Thursday. -- Mwalcoff 02:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Image of a red bird (eagle) on the side of a mountain in Southern France

I was flying from Rome, Italy to Newark Airport in the USA. Looking out the window, I could see the coast of Italy. We then passed into France, flying over the western Alps. As I looked at the mountains, I saw on the side of one mountain what appeared to be a figure of a red bird - it looked like a stylized eagle. The image faces west. I remember the image being mostly red with a white head and some black markings. It was clearly recognizeable as an object from - what was probably 30,000 feet in the sky. This image must be visible to anyone looking out of an airplane flying in this region. It has to be visible to people on the ground. Any idea what this is? Sorry I can't pin it down anymore, but it is definitely visible from any airplane flying that general route.65.219.208.17 23:39, 17 October 2007 (UTC)