Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2009 August 27

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August 27

can water go instantly from boiling to frozen in cold climates

I heard that in very cold places you can throw a cup of boiling water in the air and it would freeze by the time it hits the ground. is this true or an urban myth? is there a site that shows this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.202.43.53 (talk) 06:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

How high would you be throwing it into the air? Bus stop (talk) 06:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Here's an attempt to do it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-GSrrk_ATM. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

And here. Very impressive! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRwlrFimnZk&NR=1&feature=fvwp. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:08, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, fairly impressive. In both cases significant quantities of water fall to the ground. Obviously it would freeze if these guys had been able to throw it may be twice as high. I go with Bus Stop. 86.4.181.14 (talk) 07:34, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Finding what physical process allows the fast freezing seems to be in the realm of OR but it cannot be literally instant because there must be a finite time for the latent heat of fusion to flow from the liquid water to the air. A note in the above article that may be relevant is that liquid water being cooled quickly can rebound from just below the freezing point 0°C before the freezing process. The effect is unexplained but presumably has a time delay. It may allow relatively deeper penetration of "prefrozen ice" into the liquid when the temperature gradient is high. That is just my OR and only one of the hypotheses for the Mpemba effect.Cuddlyable3 (talk) 08:12, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I think it depends more on how you throw it (although height will obviously make a difference too). The thermal conductivity of water is really the limiting factor here. If you were to spray the hot water as a fine mist, I'm pretty sure nobody would find it surprising that it fell to the ground as tiny ice particles. On the other hand, if you dropped a cubic meter of water contained (perhaps in a thin balloon) as a solid 'blob' - even from thousands of feet up - then nobody would be surprised if it didn't freeze solid because there isn't enough time for the heat to be conducted out of the water to the surface. Ice is actually a pretty decent thermal insulator (that's why you can be warm inside an igloo!) Somewhere between those two extremes, the droplets would be small enough and sufficiently widely separated to properly freeze. The other problem is that the hot water is also warming up the air. That's going to insulate the water from further cold to some degree - so, again, the water droplets have to be separated by enough air such that the air itself has sufficient thermal capacity to absorb all of the heat from the water without getting above zero degrees C and stopping the freezing process. SteveBaker (talk) 12:29, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Small correction: igloos are not made from solid ice, but from snow, which amounts to a mixture of ice and air. The many ice/air boundaries inside the snow must contribute to the insulating power. Of course buildings made of ice exist as well. --Anonymous, 16:20 UTC, August 27, 2009.

If you get the droplets small enough, a significant portion of the water will evaporate, taking heat with it and making the droplets even smaller. This is similar to the trick of putting out a saucer of near-boiling water and a saucer of room temperature water and seeing which freezes first.

P.S. I'm sure I've seen this trick done on an episode of Nova about the research station on the South Pole. IIRC the guy doing it wasn't even wearing outdoors clothes. APL (talk) 14:24, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Water vapor freezes out of the air all the time without going through an intevening liquid phase, the process is called Deposition and it is the functional reverse of sublimation. That having been said, I am not sure how the process would apply to steam at 100 degrees celsius cooling to ice crystals without forming intervening water droplets; what likely happens is there is a very brief period of condensation whereby tiny liquid water droplets form, these then freeze before they have time to make large enough droplets to see. This is different from actual deposition, which involves sub-0 degree water vapor in the air directly forming solid ice. --Jayron32 03:08, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

What the original poster describes matches a gag in a cartoon, Frigid Hare, in which Bugs Bunny encounters a penguin... at the north pole, yet.[1] Video disabled, but note dialogue: "As they fall, the penguin runs away and comes back with a bucket of water and throws it after. In defiance of gravity, the water falls faster than Bugs and the eskimo and catches up with them, freezing onto the piece of ice to make a new icicle." Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 00:58, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

UK Railways

What is the longest stretch of railway in the UK between two stations ?

Cheers 80.193.130.5 (talk) 08:57, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

On railways currently operational, High Speed 1 - Ebbsfleet International - Ashford International is 43km. Clover345 (talk) 10:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

How far is Berwick upon Tweed to Dunbar (on the East Coast Main Line) by rail? By road they're 45km, and the railway takes a rather less direct route than the road. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 10:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Dumfries to Sanquhar, Penrith to Oxenholme looks to a similar distance - they are both ~40km maybe more. Measuring berwick to dunbar on a map gives ~45km - as a guess.83.100.250.79 (talk) 13:46, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Lockerbie to Kirknewton must be further (trains on this stretch, operated as TransPennine North West, don't stop at Kirknewton, but continue to Haymarket in Edinburgh) - it looks to me around 95km. Note that the line runs close to, but not through, Carstairs Junction. Warofdreams talk 14:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

We have a winner - even if you include carstairs it's about twice as long as any other I found.

Many thanks to you all. I wondered if Preston --> Lancaster would have been up there too. Thanks for the responses. 80.193.130.5 (talk) 14:09, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Grantham to peterborough looks longer (unless I missed a small station)83.100.250.79 (talk) 15:04, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

In the U.S., railroads have official timetables for conductors, with detailed distances. You may be able to find something similar in the U.K. --- OtherDave (talk) 19:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Bungee jump in Spain

What's the highest bungee jump in Spain? Thanks for any help 81.33.81.250 (talk) 12:39, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Deepest I think you mean.86.197.148.121 (talk) 13:00, 27 August 2009 (UTC)DT

Standard usage seems to be 'highest'. See here. Martlet1215 (talk) 13:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

According to Google, some guy called Curtis Rivers jumped from a balloon 15,200 ft above Puertollano in Spain to set a new record. He also made a parachute jump from 25,000 feet lasting 45 minutes. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 14:16, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Have you got a reliable source for that? I would have thought a jump from 25,000 feet would have lasted around 140 seconds. To fall for 45 minutes, he would have to jump from much higher up. Astronaut (talk) 14:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the parachute helps slow the descent. --LarryMac | Talk 15:11, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm guessing the OP didn't mean highest in that sense (and I'm guessing Mr Rivers didn't have a 15,000ft bungee cord). DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:39, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Parachuting#Parachute deployment suggests the parachute slows the speed of descent to 12 mph. Even if the chute was deployed immediately, the 25,000 feet descent would only take about 23 minutes. Maybe he jumped from 25,000 metres, but without a reliable source it is hard to be sure. Astronaut (talk) 15:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know anything about this, but could he have had a special even slower parachute? Prokhorovka (talk) 16:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Or he could have caught updrafts, and performed true heavier than air flight. It's impossible to estimate the drop time if he was not steadily descending. Nimur (talk) 17:04, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Special Forces troops can drift for hours on end. They are trained to do this so they can infiltrate enemy territory covertly without the noise of the plane giving them away. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 18:54, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, should have made myself more clear... The 'deepest' place to bungee jump from (that's available for public) as opposed to record length... Thanks 81.33.81.250 (talk) 16:52, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I think 'deepest place to bungee jump to' would be more appropriate. The deepest place to jump from would be the ocean floor, and would not be much fun. Save money on bungee cord, though. --58.38.163.187 (talk) 20:57, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh come on man, get over it... Give us a break... It's obvious what I'm asking.. .Any real help would be great.. Thanks 83.33.75.101 (talk) 12:49, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

At first I thought it was fairly clear that you meant the greatest total drop-distance: maximum value of (initial altitude - final altitude). But now I am not sure - are you looking for (maximum initial altitude); or (minimum final altitude); or what? We've become lost in clarifications that do not actually clarify. Anyway, regarding your actual query, it looks like Alicante has a few commercial bungee jump locations. But the trouble is, you can bungee jump from anywhere - BASE jumpers regularly defy safety, common sense, and trespass in order to find new spots. So, the highest jump is probably impossible to define precisely, anyway; if you're looking only for commercial companies that offer bungee jumping, you will probably do better with a phone book or Google search than the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Nimur (talk) 15:35, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Damn man the dude was asking a simple question-whats the highest bungee jump you can go do in spain! Either a bunch of geeks with no clue about bungee jumping saw your question and just felt like having a geek argument or they were just messing with you. I don'tknow the exact answer to your question. As I'm a bungee operator in the U.S. in OHIO but i can tell you the best place to go to find the answer to your question. it's a website that is just a site that has all the Bungee sites world wide listed. I'm new on here  I don't know if I'm allowed to do this or not-I'm getting ready to build a page on here that lists all the U.S. sites then I will move on to the rest of the world!

But for now go to this site they should have your answer. www.bungeezone.com hope it helps......J....

Photography Effect

What is this effect [2]? Is it purely a digital photo-editing thing? (Picture taken from the BBC News Magazine page) AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 15:08, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I searched for "zoom effect" and found this. --LarryMac | Talk 15:16, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Not sure whether you could actually do this 'on camera', but you can produce this effect using a Radial Blur filter in Photoshop (took me about a minute to reproduce). Not that I've tried this myself, but if you read the bottom paragraph in this section (or check Zoom burst), using a zoom while the shutter is open will produce a radial blur which would be similar - however you'd probably need a longer exposure than would be possible in the linked image, and the blur is off centre in it (which could have resulted from a crop). However, on the balance I'd say it's been Photoshopped. --jjron (talk) 15:24, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

As a photographer, off the top of my head, I can think of 3 ways to produce a picture like that: 1) As AlmostReadytoFly has shown, to use a slightly longer shutter speed and zoom with the lens while the shutter is open. 2) To use the Radial Blue Filter in Photoshop as Jjron has described. 3) To use a specialty lens such as a LensBaby that allows selective focus http://www.lensbaby.com/. Acceptable (talk) 15:35, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The link I provided very clearly indicates that this is possible in camera, and provides a nice discussion of exactly how to do so, along with several nice examples. --LarryMac | Talk 17:16, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Indeed it does, thank you very much. I'll have to give this a try. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 19:12, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Real-life Motherlovers

Are there any cases in which two men marry each others mother? Or two women marrying each others father? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.216.183 (talk) 16:30, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Whilst I can't give you a specific example (I have no acquaintance with one), I am almost certain the answer is yes. My reason is simply that the world's population is so vast and the occurrence doesn't sound too unlikely.--Leon (talk) 16:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Logics suggest the following simplification:

Some (possibly most) men (man A) are already married to the mother of their son (man B). This leaves the requirement of the said son B to marry his paternal grandmother.

Google suggest there are / were at least two cases of a man marrying his grandmother (in India and Russia), though none states if this is the grandmother on the paternal or maternal side.

Ergo: Iff (ie if and only if) paternal, then man A is married to man B´s mother and man B is married to man A´s mother. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Not exactly the same thing, but one of the Rolling Stones married his son's wife's daughter. I can't remember which one of them it was. That made him his son's son-in-law. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 18:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Woody Allen married his fifth wife's adopted daughter. What would make their relationship, in linguistic terms? Step-father-husband & Step-daughter-wife? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 18:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

According to the general public, it could be called "step-incestuous". Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 20:13, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Only in the vaguest possible sense, though. It certainly wasn't legally incestuous, otherwise they would never have been permitted to marry. Allen and Farrow never married, and never even lived together. Soon-Yi was simply his girlfriend's adopted daughter (never his step-daughter), who later became his wife. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

It just seemed sleazy somehow. And since Woody never adopted her, the answer becomes simple: Soon-Yi is his wife. No other qualifiers needed. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 21:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

What went on between Allen and Soon-Yi while Allen was in a relationship with Farrow was certainly sleazy. He was sort of in loco parentis to Soon-Yi at that stage - but only sort of - and to that degree he had a duty of care to treat her accordingly. The judge was scathing about his behaviour in relation to her at that time. But she agreed to become his wife regardless of all that; her decision should be respected, imo. It's understandable why Farrow is all bitter and twisted about Allen nowadays, but it's still the choice of two adults to marry - or not - whatever their parents think of it. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:58, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

That's true, and Farrow was not exactly a paragon of virtue herself. In any case, since she wasn't his step-anything, "wife" is sufficient to cover it. Also technically a little far afield from the original question. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 12:17, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

It's close, but not exactly the same. My mom had two brothers who married a mother and daughter. We sometimes jokingly call the daughter my "cousin-aunt". She was my step-cousin for several years before she became my aunt, and I knew her more that way, but lots of my younger cousins only know her as their aunt. STrange things happen in large families... --Jayron32 03:03, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Also coming close to this is the case of former Rolling Stone Bill Wyman; he married the much younger Mandy Smith, and later his son became engaged to Smith's mother (though I can't find any record of them actually marrying).[3] --193.172.19.20 (talk) 10:08, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Box-shaped slatted covers on British traffic lights

Does anyone know why on some light units on British traffic lights a box-shaped cover with slats is sometimes placed on it? I don't think it's permenent, but I'm not sure... Chevymontecarlo (talk) 17:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

To keep the sun off the lens such that drivers can always see what it's doing, is what I've surmised. --Tagishsimon (talk) 17:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I think it's more to do with reducing the angle over which the light is visible - either to stop drivers at other junctions using the light to predict what will happen with their light, or to avoid annoying nearby residents. Not certain, though. --Phil Holmes (talk) 17:14, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

That would be the box around the light, not the slats I think.83.100.250.79 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC).

I find those boxes rather annoying, as a pedestrian, because I never know when the lights have changed and when to cross - sometimes you don't have the little green man on the other side. Very dangerous. --58.38.163.187 (talk) 21:08, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm with Phil. You only see these slats when there are two junctions close together. The slats block the light except in a slightly downwards direction, so that you can only see it when you're within that arc. This stops someone waiting at junction A seeing a light change to green at junction B, thinking it's for him, and driving out in front of a lorry. 93.97.184.230 (talk) 17:38, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually I think you're right - maybe it happily serves both purposes?83.100.250.79 (talk) 19:01, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

More. (continues from above discussion) this [4] says the purpose of slats (louvres) is to prevent the wrong lane of traffic reading the light - however I infer that such louvres would need to be vertically aligned to work.

Horizontal louvres cannot prevent that effect - but do stop the sun - also consider the lorry driver - who is at least 1m higher than the average car driver. Question did you mean horizontal or vertical louvres?83.100.250.79 (talk) 19:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

They are horizontal, but contained in a box (or, if you like having single vertical slats at each side, and top & bottom). They are, imo, a bit crap for exactly the reason hinted at by 83.100 - won't you consider the lorry driver? --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:52, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

... of course, if the boxes were installed before 1946, they might have been part of Air Raid Precautions [See blackout (wartime).] —— Shakescene (talk) 03:33, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

There are some of these at a junction in Brighton which are so arranged that the only way to see what the lights are actually shewing is to drive over the stop line - it's fine if you can remember the sequence of all the other lights at the junction, but it can be a bit hairy. DuncanHill (talk) 10:14, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

As a driving instructor I can confirm that according to whichever manual I read it in while training that it is as mentioned repeatedly above - ie it is done to prevent all but the specifically intended traffic to be able to view the green light. A case in point - there is a large traffic junction near me that also has a light controlled pedestrian crossing within 5 metres of the green light for the major junction. In order for the oncoming vehicles to not go on the wrong green light (and the crossing light is always green - no-one uses it as they just go when the major junction has stopped!) there are slats in place that you are thus only able to see the green light of the crossing when you are within the 5 metre area between the edge of the major junction and the crossing. Having said that I am bloody glad no-one uses the crossing as i don't know many people who would be able to stop that quickly if they even actually noticed it wasn't green! not at the speed most poeple leave this particular junction anyways... Hope that that helps... Gazhiley (talk) 10:54, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for the answers...Yes it has helped a lot.... Chevymontecarlo (talk) 15:57, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Objectives

plz guide me about the diffrence between verifiable and non verifiable objectives of a organisation.it is qustion from management area.is goodwill comes under verifiable objective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nutanswami (talk • contribs) 17:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Do you know what "verifiable" (verb : 'to verify') means ?See here http://economics.about.com/od/economicsglossary/g/verifiable.htm

The question "Is 'goodwill' a verifiable objective" can be answered. Some companies have have "corporate statement" that sets out their objectives in terms of the world outside their line of business - such statements commonly included: environmental policy, human rights policy, fair trade policy e.t.c. ; in general the key values that the company wants to be associated with. If a company wants to cultivate goodwill it will probably say in the corporate statement.

This type of statement is commonly called the Mission statement

For example Sharp has a guiding principle of "Honesty and Creativity" described in it's corporate profile [5]

For more examples see http://www.sharp-world.com/corporate/info/index.html - most large companies will have a similar page outlining various company policies relating to social responsibility, customer relations etc.

83.100.250.79 (talk) 18:57, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

But you're only discussing goodwill as being an objective. As to whether that objective is verifiable, as in "did we meet our goal?", I'd be thinking no. To be verifiable, you need to measure it. How do you measure "good will"? Contrast, say, to "our objective is to reduce electricity use by 25% over the next two years".

And of course, there's a completely different management definition of goodwill, which is basically how much you overpaid for an acquisition... Franamax (talk) 20:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I assumed it meant whether or not to achieve goodwill is verifiable as an objective of the company, rather than whether or not that objective could have been met (or be shown to have been met)..It doesn't need measurement - just a statement on the company website saying "we seek to build goodwill with all our customers"... Perhaps the accounting meaning is more likely anyway83.100.250.79 (talk) 21:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

If the test to to find out whether or not "goowill" has been achieved as an aim - ie is "goodwill" a verifiable aim then the answer is yes, but with reservations - A customer survey would probably help in this case.

For further information, see Goodwill Industries. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 04:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Bruises

Why do bruises tend to get darker and darker over time before they gradually fade away? I have a huge bruise on my arm from a fall two weeks ago, and at the time it happened it was just a darkish yellowy colour. Now it's dark purple. (NB: not a request for medical advice, just a query). --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 19:21, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Bruise suggests "Some of these color changes are related to the breakdown of the hemoglobin in the escaped red blood cells", fwiw. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Same thing happened to me last week. I had a couple of bee stings, and for the first week they were light red. Then they turned purple for a couple of days, then disappeared. — Michael J 19:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

This site contains a colour chart explaining how the coloration of a bruise over time is related to the chemical changes taking place in the haemoglobin as it breaks down. Karenjc 20:58, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Tourist Visa in China

Is it possible to go to China on a tourist visa to find work? Ok, this is a legal question, so feel free not to answer it, but I have been told that that is the most common way to do it. Then what happens? Do you exit the country after your 30 days are up, and return with a work permit from the company you have signed up with, or can you just apply for a 'Change Of Status', as you can in Japan? --58.38.163.187 (talk) 21:04, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

China is still a communist country, even tho it has made great economic and free trade progress, it can still be very idiosyncratic, not least due to the diplomatic corruption. Japan on the other hand may as well be a western country as far as diplomacy goes, I was there for a month and didn't need a visa. Give the Chinese consulate a call and just ask them, it is one of the reasons they are there. I had to apply for a visa to Vietnam a few years ago and the process was fairly easy, in fact most of the people I dealt with were very friendly and happy to help. The only major pain was I actually had to post my passport to the Vietnamese consulate which was interstate and it took about six weeks to get it back. It was registered post and everything, but I still got a funny feeling putting my passport in the post. Vespine (talk) 00:53, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Anecdotally, it's possible to go to China on a tourist visa and then apply for a work visa when you have work. The process takes some time to do, up to and more than a month, in some cases, because of the paperwork, but I've also seen it done in a week in... uhh... special circumstances. While working on a tourist visa is illegal, it is still a common occurrence, and some companies have been known to delay the work visa so that they can fly under the radar for longer. Be careful, and be savvy, but it's both possible and not entirely uncommon. You'll need someone in the know to help you through the paperwork. Steewi (talk) 01:40, 28 August 2009 (UTC)