Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 February 23
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February 23[edit]
Oldest and newest sovereign states[edit]
Hi. I was looking at Lists of sovereign states by year. Is there a sortable table anywhere of all recognised states and their year of formation/recognition, so for example I could sort it by most recent year and see Sint Maarten, Curacao etc. at the top? Thanks. 86.166.74.104 (talk) 11:23, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
- List of sovereign states by date of formation#Sortable list is close to what you're looking for, though it doesn't include Sint Maarten or Curacao as they are "constituent countries" of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. the wub "?!" 12:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
- There's a bit of ambiguity in the question since it doesn't indicate who is doing the recognizing. Consider that if you're using the United Nations as your recognizing authority, that organization has only existed since 1945. I think a number of Middle Eastern states still do not recognize Israel as a sovereign state. I'm actually on the side of those who sought to delete the article, Lists of sovereign states by year. --Quartermaster (talk) 13:52, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
- There's also the question on how to define a state as distinct and sovereign. Take Germany for example; the current state has only existed since 1990, when the two formerly independent states of East and West Germany unified. However, they were only two states from the years 1945-1990. Prior to 1945, Germany was a unified nation, under three or so different states, from about 1871 (see Unification of Germany). However, the earliest unified German nation could also be considered East Francia in 843, through which you can draw a direct line to the Holy Roman Empire (aka the Kingdom of Germany or the "First Reich"). So when does the history of the Germany as a sovereign state start? 1990? 1871? 843? You run into the same problems when defining the "start dates" for other states with a long history, such as the "United Kingdom" which, depending on how you define it, could have been "founded" any time from 843 (traditional date of foundation of Scotland, the oldest of the constituent nations of the UK) to 1066 (Norman Conquest) to 1707 (Union of England and Scotland) to 1801 (add Ireland) to 1927 (less the Republic of Ireland, when the modern state took its current form). Likewise, does China date to the founding of the PRC in 1949 or to the traditional foundation of the first imperial Chinese dynasty, the Xia in 2070 BC? Does Russia date to the foundation of the current Russian Federation (1991), with Ivan the Terrible, who founded the Russian Tsardom in 1547, with the Grand Duchy of Moscow, which had been founded in 1283, its predecessor state Vladimir-Suzdal, founded in 1168, or Vladimir-Suzdal's predecessor state Kievan Rus', founded about 880. We could go on all day like this. It's fairly easy to pinpoint states which have existed in their current form for a short period of time, such as the United States, which has been essentially the same state since 1787 (or 1776) but for any state which has existed for more than a few centuries, the details become so convoluted it is hard to define a unique moment in time when it came into being. --Jayron32 05:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
- By some measures the US is one of the older states. The Federal Republic of Germany, for example, has existed only since the end of World War II, as has the Italian Republic. On a related note, I absolutely do not buy the People's Republic of China's claim to Taiwan, which they have never ruled for a day; the fact that one of their predecessor states did is entirely irrelevant. --Trovatore (talk) 09:37, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
- Even for some relative newby countries like Australia, it's hard to pin down a specific date for sovereignty. Nobody disputes we're sovereign now, but exactly when did that happen? Lists of sovereign states by year says it was 1901, but that is pretty much universally agreed as NOT the date upon which we achieved sovereignty. That was simply when the 6 British colonies federated into a super colony; it was never officially called that, but it had all the hallmarks of a colony at that time. Various other dates have been suggested - our acceptance as a sovereign nation by the League of Nations after World War I; acceptance of the Statute of Westminster effective 3 September 1939 (List of sovereign states by date of formation#Sortable list says 9 October 1942); or even, according to some, as late as the coming into effect of the Australia Act 1986 on 3 March 1986. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 09:31, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
- There's also the question on how to define a state as distinct and sovereign. Take Germany for example; the current state has only existed since 1990, when the two formerly independent states of East and West Germany unified. However, they were only two states from the years 1945-1990. Prior to 1945, Germany was a unified nation, under three or so different states, from about 1871 (see Unification of Germany). However, the earliest unified German nation could also be considered East Francia in 843, through which you can draw a direct line to the Holy Roman Empire (aka the Kingdom of Germany or the "First Reich"). So when does the history of the Germany as a sovereign state start? 1990? 1871? 843? You run into the same problems when defining the "start dates" for other states with a long history, such as the "United Kingdom" which, depending on how you define it, could have been "founded" any time from 843 (traditional date of foundation of Scotland, the oldest of the constituent nations of the UK) to 1066 (Norman Conquest) to 1707 (Union of England and Scotland) to 1801 (add Ireland) to 1927 (less the Republic of Ireland, when the modern state took its current form). Likewise, does China date to the founding of the PRC in 1949 or to the traditional foundation of the first imperial Chinese dynasty, the Xia in 2070 BC? Does Russia date to the foundation of the current Russian Federation (1991), with Ivan the Terrible, who founded the Russian Tsardom in 1547, with the Grand Duchy of Moscow, which had been founded in 1283, its predecessor state Vladimir-Suzdal, founded in 1168, or Vladimir-Suzdal's predecessor state Kievan Rus', founded about 880. We could go on all day like this. It's fairly easy to pinpoint states which have existed in their current form for a short period of time, such as the United States, which has been essentially the same state since 1787 (or 1776) but for any state which has existed for more than a few centuries, the details become so convoluted it is hard to define a unique moment in time when it came into being. --Jayron32 05:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
wikipedia[edit]
how do i answer a question in wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trishal13 (talk • contribs) 17:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
- Best way to answer a question here at one of the Wikipedia Reference Desks is to just pick a question, hit the "edit" link next to it, and answer away! Give it a try and we'll try to help you along from there. WikiDao ☯ 17:28, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
- Read through Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines. They should give you an insight into what goes on around here. Karenjc 17:44, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
Catching the train at Paris/Charles de Gaulle airport[edit]
I'm hoping to get some input from someone familiar with Paris's CDG airport - I'll be arriving late at night and have to get to the city center the same night. Assuming my flight is on time, I'll be arriving at 22:40, travelling without luggage so I won't have to wait for that. According to the timetable, the last RER train from the airport runs at 22:58 (it's a direct train, so it should be reasonably safe). Do I have a realistic chance of catching that train? And if not, how much can I expect to pay for a taxi? Thanks in advance, Ferkelparade π 18:54, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
- The answer depends on three things: 1) How close you are seated to the plane's exit; 2) Which CDG terminal you arrive at (if your plane even arrives at a terminal); and 3) Which gate your plane arrives at (if it arrives at a gate). I think your only chance is to be seated near the plane's exit and to arrive at Terminal 2. Terminal 2 is the location of the RER station. Any other terminal would be too far away, when you take into account time to leave the plane, time to wait for and travel on the internal metro to Terminal 2, and time to transfer at Terminal 2. (See the map on this page.) Even at Terminal 2, if you are too far from the exit, or at a gate too far from the RER, you won't make it. The one time I arrived at CDG, my plane did not even arrive at a gate. Instead, it stopped in a remote paved area, and we had to walk down external stairs and board a bus to a terminal. Obviously, by the time the bus fills up, the RER train will have left. This website estimates the taxi fare at €50 plus an evening surcharge. You should probably budget €70. Or else perhaps consider booking a room near the airport, and take the RER into Paris the next morning. Marco polo (talk) 20:33, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, other websites estimate anywhere betweeen €40-70 for a standard taxi depending on the time of day. The last bus seems to leave at 11pm too. The alternative might be to pre-book with one of the shuttle minibus firms that serve the airport. Wikipedia's spam filters dislike the direct link, but Googling "paris airport shuttle" produced some information. At least one company appears to offer the trip for €30 for a single passenger, including a €3 supplement for an evening pickup. Karenjc 20:55, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks, the shuttle service looks great - I'll give them a try. I'll be arriving at terminal 1, so the train is right out. Thanks all for your suggestions! -- Ferkelparade π 21:24, 23 February 2011 (UTC)