Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 February 5

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February 5

Google voice

If I have a friend in the UK and she gets a google voice number, will it be free to text her if I am in the US?Accdude92 (talk) 04:04, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Google Voice is not available outside the Good Ol' yet, as far as the rest of the world know. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:05, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Pre-DADT Repeal, Conscription of Gay Men

Recently, the US military repealed their Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy. But hypothetically, let us assume that there had been a general conscription in the US prior to the repeal of DADT (say, for WWIII), would one be able to get out of the draft by claiming that they are openly homosexual?

Acceptable (talk) 05:09, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I guess so, because such a person would immediately be in breach of the "don't tell" part of the requirement. HiLo48 (talk) 05:38, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Far as I know that was true in the Vietnam era and prior, along with the old saw that straight men might pretend to be gay in order to avoid the draft (as with Phil Ochs' song, "The Draft Dodger Rag"). Women weren't drafted, of course, but lesbians who volunteered had to keep it quiet or they could be expelled. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:52, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

In theory presuming the law didn't change, probably. However from what I've heard (having trouble finding an RS but [1] has some discussion), the US military's tolerance has varied depending on how desperate they were and it wasn't unknown for them to disbelieve such claims and try to force people to serve anyway. (I guess if you go around telling everyone you saw that you're gay you may get out presuming you weren't murdered beforehand.) Of course once they weren't so desperate, it also wasn't unknown for them to kick out those who had volunteered and served honourably, wanted to continue serve and had practiced some discretion. As BB has said, this has been the case for most of the times when the draft was in effect although the law has varied tending to be stricter in the past. See also Sexual orientation and the United States military. Notably, being kicked out for being gay was not necessarily a good thing for you career prospects, see Section 8 (military) and Blue discharge so I suspect wasn't necessarily seen as a better option then say running to Canada. Nil Einne (talk) 07:02, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

According to our article,

The act specifies that service members who disclose they are homosexual or engage in homosexual conduct shall be separated (discharged) except when a service member's conduct was "for the purpose of avoiding or terminating military service" or when it "would not be in the best interest of the armed forces" (10 U.S.C. § 654(e)).

So it seems that they thought of that :-/. I guess what it boils down to is that they'd kick you out if they wanted to, but not just because you wanted them to. Like Bugs, I have heard of people pretending to be gay to avoid service in earlier conflicts; I don't know how well it worked. --Trovatore (talk) 07:06, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

This source offers further clues. On pages 7-8 it says:

' ... during wartime, the military services can, and have, instituted actions “to suspend certain laws relating to ... separation” that can limit administrative discharges. These actions, known as “stop-loss,” allow the services to minimize the disruptive effects of personnel turnover during a crisis. However, administrative discharges for homosexual conduct normally are not affected by stop-loss. It can be speculated that a claim of homosexuality during a crisis may be viewed skeptically, but under the policy would require an investigation. Stop-loss as implemented requires an investigation to determine if the claim is bona fide or being used for some other reason, such as avoiding deployment overseas and/or to a combat zone. If, following an investigation, such a claim were found to be in violation of the law on homosexual conduct, the services could not use “stop-loss” to delay an administrative discharge. In practice, it is quite possible for an individual, during a crisis, to claim to be a homosexual and to be deployed while awaiting the results of an investigation. Likewise, a claim made during a non-crisis situation would more likely be dealt with in a routine manner, leading to a discharge.'

-- Karenjc 10:56, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Foreign Policy magazine December 4, 2010 describes the Turkish military rigorous proof requirement by anyone applying for exemption from service by claiming to be gay: "In personal experiences recounted for Foreign Policy magazine in December, some gay men seeking exemptions were ordered to verify their claims by producing witnesses to their homosexual acts, or by photographing themselves fully engaged -- and to be persuasive to authorities, the conscript had to be depicted in the "receiving" position in sexual intercourse."[2] -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 12:21, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

How close can you safely stand behind a claymore?

Since claymore mines explode in a unidirectional arc, how close can you safely stand behind a claymore mine You can safely stand 8ft behind a claymore mine and be free from all debris. Recommended distance is 10ft yet 8 will be sufficient. Try it out and see for yourself. Thanks, Acceptable (talk) 06:41, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

The article M18 Claymore anti-personnel mine suggests that your description is incorrect, but I recommend you read the article. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:50, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Nope, the description/assumption is correct. The question after it bizarre. Without knowing why one would stand behind a claymore mine it is difficult to think of situations in which one would do so. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:02, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

The article claims the explosion is directional. I interpreted the question to mean it sprayed 360. If it doesn't, in theory you could stand an inch behind it and be OK. The fact it's triggered by remote control might tell you something, though. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:05, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Unidirectional, Bugs, would mean 'in a singular direction'. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:07, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, in a "unidirectional arc" would indeed square with the article. So is it safe to stand behind one? Is the remote triggering done merely to catch the enemy off-guard? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:09, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Does this item need a "Don't try this at home" disclaimer? HiLo48 (talk) 07:24, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Only if it's possible to buy a claymore mine at your local WalMart or Ace Hardware. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:28, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, I would have no chance in Australia (we don't even have WalMart!), but in America.... HiLo48 (talk) 07:31, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Claymore mines are strictly military weapons, so they're not publicly available. I think the best you could do is to buy a bunch of Jiffy Pops and line them up in a bank, propped up, and fired with sterno cans. The enemy would laugh hysterically at such a lame joke, and would eat the "shrapnel", and then soon die because it was laced with cyanide. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:39, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Considering its an explosives based product and with the fact that it is meant to be remote detonated, I'm sure standing immediately behind it isn't a sound idea. Machines and explosives are both prone to error either thru manufacturing errors or operator error. Is the OP planing on holding it like a gun when detonating it? If nothing else, it seems like the recoil from the explosion would probably do significant harm to anyone "behind" the device, lol. Heiro 08:37, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

It may make for an interesting plot point in a spy novel. Dismas|^(talk) 08:41, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Here's what you want. "You can also expect secondary fragments to rebound up to 100 meters behind the mine." Second to last sentence. Vimescarrot (talk) 10:01, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Aha. That's also their effective range. So at least 100m away would be recommended. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:13, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Or you can put it at the top of the stairs and snipe from the small the room with the window... schyler (talk) 14:26, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

The Swedish Försvarsladdning 21 is a type of Claymore mine. It has a 50 meter blasting cap wire, which means that you will have to be really close to set it off. The manual stresses that you should detonate it from cover, however. In peacetime, the safety distances are larger. SäkI Spräng 10, one of the Swedish military safety manuals, gives the safety distance as 200 m behind and to the sides of the mine, 400 m in front of it. That's the distance where you can be sure to stand safely when a claymore is detonated. Of course, I suppose there are many models that are called Claymores, and they will all have their own specifications.Sjö (talk) 18:10, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

The primary reference is FM23-23 which states:

b. Danger Area of Backblast and Secondary Missiles (figs. 4 and 24). Within an area of 16 meters to the rear and sides of the mine, backblast can cause injury by concussion (ruptured eardrums) and create a secondary missile hazard.

(1) Friendly troops are prohibited to the rear and sides of the mine within a radius of 16 meters.

(2) The minimum safe operating distance from the mine is 16 meters. At this distance, and regardless of how the mine is employed, the operator should be in a foxhole, behind cover, or lying prone in a depression. The operator and all friendly troops within 100 meters of the mine must take cover to prevent being injured by flying secondary objects such as sticks, stones, and pebbles.

Having actually deployed and fired a Claymore, I can confirm that there are backblast effects. The casing of the mine very nicely illustrates Newton's third law. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 18:25, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Ah, thank you; this was what I was looking for. In video games (which I know don't offer the most realistic portrayals) such as Call of Duty, the player is safe anywhere behind a detonating mine. In other words, the player can stand an inch behind a Claymore and not be injured. Acceptable (talk) 20:28, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

tharakan/mannadiar's arrival to kerala.

Dear sirs, obrahmins.

But they had to migrate to the kozhikode samoothiri's kingdom facing some sort of harassement from the pandyaraja of tamilnadu.Samoothiri promised to protect them and allowedthem to live in some parts of Malabar like palakkad(especially in thiruvazhiyode, mangode,peringode pulappatta angadippuram in malappuram and chittoor in palakkad. but these people were told to disguise their identity by removing the pinkuduma and the poonool. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.153.87.148 (talk) 11:12, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, that is a very good answer, but I am unclear what your question is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caesar's Daddy (talk • contribs) 16:24, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

It's about Indian history, possibly identifying a disagreement with one of our articles. Any experts in Indian history around? Itsmejudith (talk) 19:25, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

It may relate to the article Thachil Matthoo Tharakan. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:20, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Aircraft/Airline Safety

2 questions. First, which country has the worst record of aircraft safety? Secondly, how does a destination country assure itself of the air worthiness of an incoming aircraft? Thanks. 84.13.75.34 (talk) 11:57, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Each National aviation authority issues airworthiness certificates which may be of type standard or special. See the linked articles for details. These certificates apply to particular aircraft while airport authorities may choose to ban a particular airline. Wikipedia has a summary of Aviation accidents and incidents.Cuddlyable3 (talk) 20:07, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Interesting question. I suppose that to be useful, you'd need to limit the question to "in the last decade" or two decades, or something, because airlines were flourishing in some countries in 1930, while other countries had no airlines until decades later. You should also clarify whether by "worst record" you mean total number of "incidents", or total number of fatalities or injuries; or whether you mean on a per capita basis, which seems like a better measurement to me. Anyway, Skytrax maintains ratings of airlines, which seem to be a mix of safety and service quality; and I didn't find an accumulated country list. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:39, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Geo coordinates for SS Edmund Fitzgerald wreckage

At source question, an editor is looking for help in finding a reference to geo coordinates for a sunken ship to help move an article to FA status. The wreckage of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald could lie in US waters, Canidian waters, or both (affecting legal rights to the wreckage). If you can sleuth out a reliable source for the geo coordinates, that would be great. Also see Recent "900 feet from the border" addition. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 12:05, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

This site states

The Edmund Fitzgerald Rest .0555 Statue Miles - .4392 Nautical Miles - 2669 Feet - 889.74 Yards from the US / Canada line. Center of wreck site - 46 59.8N - 85 06.7W / 46 59 48N - 85 06 42W

I'm looking for corroboration or a listing on a chart (this site lists NOAA Chart 14962). --Quartermaster (talk) 15:05, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

The coordinates are reported in "Marine accident report SS Edmund Fitzgerald sinking in Lake Superior on November 10, 1975" (PDF). National Transportation Safety Board. 1978-05-04. p. 2. Retrieved 2010-11-19. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)--Wpwatchdog (talk) 15:19, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Best answer. Ya beat me by literally seconds! I would say that the NTSB report is about as authoritative a source one could find. --Quartermaster (talk) 00:44, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks for the help. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 08:34, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

But 0.055 statute miles is 0.044 nautical miles, 267 feet and 89 yards. Is is actually 0.55 statue miles from the border? Googlemeister (talk) 19:30, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Missing coin nominal values

Why aren't there any 2, 20, or 200 yen coins? --84.62.198.234 (talk) 15:20, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Why weren't there any 0.20 or 0.25 DM coins? --84.62.198.234 (talk) 15:20, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

The same as the last time you asked. Scroll up or use Ctrl + F (search for "yen") to find the question and its responses. Vimescarrot (talk) 15:27, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

According to this page, historically the binary system and the duodecimal system were not used in Japan and 5 was/is the cornerstone of abacus which has been widely used in Japan. This is the G-translation. Oda Mari (talk) 09:37, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Why should there have been? Not every currency has to have all possible nominal values that can exist, not even all nominal values that are commonly used. You could just as well ask why there are no 3 cent or 30 cent coins in either the Euro or the US dollar. When the coins of the Finnish markka were changed for the last time in its history, the 5 penni coin was abandoned as being worth too little, but the 20 penni coin was also abandoned, even though there still was a 10 penni coin. JIP | Talk 19:02, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

The US did, in fact, have a three cent coin (the "trime"). And three cent paper money as well. Collect (talk) 19:31, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Drat, I didn't know that. I guess it comes from not being American. But my point still stands. JIP | Talk 19:32, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry about that. I would wager that less then 5% of Americans know about the 3 cent coin as they stopped making them in 1889. Googlemeister (talk) 15:56, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

There are also 3 Euro coins, although these are, I believe, strictly commemorative. TomorrowTime (talk) 19:36, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I guess I should have mentioned 31 cent (Euro or US) coins or something instead, to avoid people focusing on misunderstood historical details rather than my actual point, then. Now how long will it take for someone to mention that there has been a 31 cent coin somewhere in the world? JIP | Talk 19:40, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

patron saint

Who is the patron saint of the Green Bay Packers, the Superbowl or American football in general? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.125.141.163 (talk) 17:14, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe there is any such. Saint Sebastian probably gets closest, as the patron saint of athletes. Various figures might be termed the "patron saint" of the categories you listed, but that will only be for rhetorical effect. Our article on the history of the Green Bay Packers will suggest several candidates such as Curly Lambeau or Vince Lombardi. Our article on the Pro Football Hall of Fame may help for candidates at the larger scope. — Lomn 17:22, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Note that there is a Green Bay fan who dresses up in green and gold Bishop attire and goes by the nickname "St. Vince" (After Vince Lombardi - see [3]). I don't think he's recognized as a patron saint by any formal religion, though. -- 174.24.195.38 (talk) 21:05, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

IF you don't think Packer fandom isn't a formal religion, you haven't met anyone from Wisconsin then have you? --Jayron32 02:32, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

If I were a Steelers fan, I might joke that it was Saint Jude, the patron saint of lost causes and desperate situations. But I truly have no interest one way or the other, to be honest. --Mr.98 (talk) 02:36, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

"Lost causes"? Maybe today, but not in general, as the Packers have more NFL championships than any other team. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:41, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

31-25 victory over the Steelers suggests that The Pack is Back! DOR (HK) (talk) 04:17, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

The true "lost cause" was some fans who drove from Pittsburgh ot Dallas only to find that their tickets were not being honored in this billion dollar stadium, due to some glitch over the seating layout. As for the "patron saint", it seems like the Packers have quite a few angels watching over them. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:59, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

The patron saint of the Green Bay Packers, and possibly of the NFL, is obviously Vince Lombardi, and you will find many Americans who will argue that he was indeed a saint, despite what any church might say. Comet Tuttle (talk) 18:24, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Is that Saint Vince Lombardi, or Saint Vince of Lombardi? Googlemeister (talk) 14:45, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

School years numbering system in the United Kingdom

I'm wondering if anyone remembers which year the school years numbering system changed in the United Kingdom (from 1st year, 2nd year, etc, to the more American style of Year 7, Year 8, and so on). My reason for asking is that I came across this edit, and I know it is wrong because the system had already been introduced at my school by the time I left in Summer 1990. I seem to recall it being introduced the previous September (1989), but am not 100% certain. Can anyone help? Cheers TheRetroGuy (talk) 19:18, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

My memory follows yours. Instead of starting my 4th year of junior school in September 1989, I became a Year 6 pupil. But: my catchment Secondary school did not start using the new notation until September 1990. The new year notation followed the newly introduced Key Stage education as part of the National Curriculum which was enacted as part of the Education Reform Act 1988. Whether it was up to the LEA's to determine when to change, I don't know - but it seems there were differences even within an LEA area. I would imagine that September 1990 was the 'you have to be doing this by now' date. Nanonic (talk) 19:38, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

A minor point: the usual American term is grade, not year. Elementary schools ("grade schools") run from first grade (roughly age 6) through eighth grade; high school, ninth through twelfth. (Junior high and middle school are variations.) Americans will also tend to say "tenth grade" where Canadians would say "grade 10." In my experience, it's very unusual to hear terms like "Year 6" in an American school unless it's deliberately copying a British model. --- OtherDave (talk) 01:15, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I think TheRetroGuy meant by "more American style" that the pattern of numbering was somewhat similar, not that the overall terminology was identical. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 09:33, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I was referring to the numbers rather than the actual names so apologies if I caused any confusion. TheRetroGuy (talk) 22:00, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

When I left school in 2005 the year 7s were almost always still referred to as first years, though I think that was unofficial. Meanwhile, the rules, which had not been changed in a while, still mentioned the rights of fifth year pupils. Completely useless and of no interest to anyone, but I am running out of ways to put things off this afternoon. 148.197.121.205 (talk) 14:19, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Also depends on the school.I was at a public school and they used the first to fifth form system(and still do.) My first school had its own completely bonkers system.I'm just disappointed I left in the first year-the pleasure of being asked what school year you're in and replying 'The Great Erasmus' is one of life's little joys... Lemon martini (talk) 15:38, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

It came in with the National Curriulum; independent schools like Christ's Hospital didn't have to follow the National Curriculum so didn't change immediately. I don't think anyone actually made the state schools change either, hence the discrepancies mentioned above. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:23, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

In the state system, it's also slightly bizarre that we still have a Sixth Form or even a Sixth Form College, without having a third, fourth or fifth form (or year). One of those strange anomolies that we Brits like to encumber ourselves with. Alansplodge (talk) 09:24, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

"Manny Penny"

I've heard twice now on the Series Entourage characters saying they were going to a "manny penny". That is phonetic, and the best I have been able to make out from what I heard. I googled that and got nowhere, so obviously it is not the right spelling of whatever it is. Maybe someone known what this is about? What the expression I've been hearing/mishearing is? Thanks.--141.155.143.65 (talk) 20:44, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Manicure/Pedicure -- 174.24.195.38 (talk) 20:59, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Hm. Is that where the secretary in James Bond got her name from?

A closer spelling would be "mani/pedi" (the contraction for manicure and pedicure), pronounced "manny peddy." I can see how you might hear it as "manny penny." --- OtherDave (talk) 01:17, 6 February 2011 (UTC)