Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2015 February 12

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February 12

I need some sort of list of London's interbellum socialites

Is there anywhere I can find a list of London's fancy folk during the period between the Wars? I have a bunch of last names from this time period that I need to identify, but no first names. Some were straight-forward because of hearing the names in other contexts, but some would only be identifiable to a person living back then. (Like if someone says DeVito or Nicholson, you'll probably know who they mean, but 3/4 of a century from now, who knows?) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 06:41, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

• Bright young things --Tagishsimon (talk) 08:05, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Plus, unfair: post your list and let us at them. --Tagishsimon (talk) 08:07, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Surely the word should be "interbella" (accusative plural)? RomanSpa (talk) 12:51, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Wouldn't that mean between Bela Lugosi and Bella Abzug ? :-) StuRat (talk) 18:50, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

One of the great things about English is we can get away with mangling other languages. Muhahahaha! Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 20:12, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

We have a small article on the Interbellum Generation. Note that aside from Wikipedia and Wiktionary this particular word doesn't appear to be used in English - it appears to have been coined by a Wikipedia editor who hasn't actually studied Latin. RomanSpa (talk) 13:00, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, "interwar" or more commonly "between the wars"[1] is the general usage (in the UK at any rate). Alansplodge (talk) 13:54, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Nevertheless, and as awkward as the word may look, it's certified as English by the OED:

interbellum, adj.

Of or with reference to a period between two wars, e.g. between the wars of 1914–18 and of 1939–45.

1940 M. Beerbohm Mainly on Air (1946) 82, I feel sure that even in the inter-bella period a river would have done Bloomsbury no end of good.

1969 P. Anderson in A. Cockburn & R. Blackburn Student Power 231 The German emigration, coming from a philosophical culture that was quite distinct from the parish-pump positivism of interbellum Vienna, avoided this island.

If it (or at least inter-bella) is good enough for Max Beerbohm then I suppose it should be good enough for me. --Antiquary (talk) 14:04, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

The adjective interbellar scratches a bare existence. To me it looks more regularly formed than interbellum and better Anglicized than inter-bella. How does it grab you, RomanSpa? --Antiquary (talk) 14:23, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm pleased that Max Beerbohm went with interbella. You'll see that that was my own suggestion earlier (in tiny print), based on the reasoning that "inter" takes the accusative, and the accusative plural of bellum is bella. (At the school I went to bellum was actually the example noun we all used when declining neuter second declension nouns in -um.) I agree that "interbellar" is the natural anglicisation. I suppose that the OED attestation of "interbellum" is based on a descriptivist, rather than a prescriptivist, approach to the English language. Since Wikipedia and Google together now create our culture, I suppose we're now stuck with "interbellum", at least in prolespeak. RomanSpa (talk) 15:16, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

The OED also has a couple of cites for interbelline. I'll add it to Wiktionary. Dbfirs 13:42, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 1

Wow, a lot of responses. Perhaps I should have clarified what I meant by fancy people. I mean the well-monied upper echelons of London society, the high society upper crust types who probably (but not necessarily) would have borne titles and had money to throw at pretty things they wanted to purchase. Many would be born anywhere between 1860 and 1905, so not necessarily young and probably not young at all. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 15:54, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Contemporary copies of "Punch" might help you identify people who were much talked about, and reading them is great fun. SaundersW (talk) 16:12, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

The index to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography is freely available online and should be some help at any rate. I suppose your library doesn't have a subscription to the complete thing, or, better, to the successive volumes of Who Was Who? --Antiquary (talk) 16:58, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, those are very helpful resources, and I don't know. My two libraries would be the Greenwich Public Library and the NYPL. The later should. Two names I can't find are these Greek ones, Orfanides and Segredakis, around 1939. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 17:54, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Manolis Segredakis (1891–1948), possibly. Gallery owner in Paris, almost certainly moved in society. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:44, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

That's most certainly the correct fellow! Thank you, Tagi! There's another fellow I can't find, along with Orfanides, Permain Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 20:12, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Do you have any more context at all? --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:15, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Sadly, no, I'm looking at lists of buyers at auctions and the only info given is last names (except some rare cases where they give initials), which lots they purchased and for how much. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 21:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

If another gallery owner, there was a Willliam Permain at 35 King-street between 1905 and 1914. [2] --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:18, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Possibly, definitely a step in the right direction. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 21:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

And ditto - though it does not get you much further forwards, and is maybe off in the wrong direction, perhaps, [3] --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:24, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

It may very well be. As you can see, just having a name to go and nothing else is really annoying. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 21:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

According to this the art dealer William Permain died in 1910, but it's always possible a son took over the business.

A son would likely have had the resources to continue his father's practice. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 21:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

The firm was still trading under the name William Permain in 1933, and they're listed as W. Permain at the same address in 1941. Looks like Tagishsimon's find is the right one. --Antiquary (talk) 20:42, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Ah, excellent! That solves that one. He was also kind enough to slice this whole discussion into more manageable chunks. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 25 Shevat 5775 21:27, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Throw us some more, Sir William! --Antiquary (talk) 20:44, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

That's all I have right now. Others I was able to identify on my own after various layers of digging, but these ones threw me for a loop. Thankfully people here looked in places I didn't think to and solved some mysteries. If I have anymore I can't figure out next week, I'll probably bring them here as you guys have been immensely helpful already. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 21:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2

There was an interbellar Minister of Health in Greece called Apostolos Orfanides who was still politicking in 1938. Possible? --Antiquary (talk) 20:27, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Possibly, but I'm not as sure of his motivation unless he was a collector or buying things for the Greek government. I'll look into him a bit more.Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 21:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Orfanides can also be transliterated as Orphanides and Ορφανιδες in Greek.
Sleigh (talk) 22:45, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

This is true, in fact the transliteration is usually with a ph and so I was surprised when I saw it spelled with an f. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 23 Shevat 5775 23:03, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Well, I found the right one, but not his first name.[4] Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 24 Shevat 5775 03:17, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't have his first name either, but I do have his initials. One J. P. Orphanides or Orfanides of Athens was dealing in ancient Greek coins and sculpture in the 1930s. [5] [6] J is an odd initial for a Greek; I wonder if he was a Ioannis or Ilias who used a westernized form of his name? Also, a Mr. Orphanides who had something to do with ancient Greek coins died in his old age in 1966. [7] I strongly suspect he's the same man. --Antiquary (talk) 13:26, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I suspect you're right, but it is very bizarre indeed. This is the toughest name yet. How does it happen though that he's always on a last name basis everywhere. He must have been rather well known at the time. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 25 Shevat 5775 15:37, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

• The Tatler is full of fancy folk of the upper crust, read exclusively by fancy folk of the upper crust, because it is is all about them and not the lower hoi-poli. It has been like this since its inception and the mag keeps close tabs on who is who. If they haven done an article on someone - then they are of no consequence. They may be able to help.--Aspro (talk) 23:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I say old boy, capital idea. A publication with such good sense as to report on the better elements of society shall serve well. I trust that it is printed on hand-bound sheets of silver and one may not get a subscription unless they earn >100.000£ per annum? Must keep out the unwashed riff-raff after all. How many gold bars is a subscription? (And more importantly, do they have archives I can search?) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 24 Shevat 5775 03:17, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm being pedantic, but we Britons have used the notation "£100,000" for the last century or more, and the full stop to separate thousands is only used by those foreign johnnies in Europe. Alansplodge (talk) 13:11, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

That's not being pedantic, it's bringing someone from the dark night of ignorance into the sunshine of truth, a truly noble thing. Besides, no true pedant ever apologises for their pedantry. Sorry.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:10, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Ah damn, well I only lived there for a year and try to stick to British English when possible. I avoid horrendous terms like boffin religiously though. I do an otherwise good job, I hope. And Jack is right, you're informing me which is unfortunately helpful. If you want to be a true pedant, you must act dickish, I'm afraid. Like if the lead engineer for the parliamentary clock tower has been named Richard rather than Benjamin. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 25 Shevat 5775 15:37, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Ah, yes, The Tittler, Vincent Price's best postbello movie ever! μηδείς (talk) 04:07, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

The Tattler; T-H-E--T-A-T-L-E-R! Yes' I know, Resinated wine used to have the same effect on me once; which is why I stick to the real stuff now. The Tatler still have a list of lists [8] and so I can't see why they would deny a serous researcher from 'perusing' (correct term used here as the word access is yucky and and not acceptable) their valued archives. Yet, if they have read Petrie's post here, he may find he has now burnt all his bridges (whatever that means). Can I take it that the poster above lives in a country where there is only rich and poor and has deficit of people that are cultured, with refined tastes that only cultured people can appreciate and judge upon with our Dieu et mon droit.--Aspro (talk) 15:06, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Real scientists drink arak, sir, and I would never go as far as to call myself serious. A researcher yes, but serious, no—save for when one buffoon is about to pickaxe another buffoon (the first isn't looking where they're picking, the second isn't looking where they're going, and a Darwin Award is at the ready). Well, the US does have a major rich and poor divide, but I often find many wealthy people here are uncultured and many of the people that appreciate the finer arts and sciences for their sake are quite lacking in funds. None of this a God and my right business though. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 25 Shevat 5775 16:15, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

No mountin is too high. We scientists – like Isaac Newton- only drink ἀμβροσία from the grail to quench our thirst for knowledge. It requires dedication and a little effort, to find the answers! --Aspro (talk) 19:31, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

That's a funny way to spell άμαρέτώ. Eh, I've put in effort, but a different perspective is always helpful as all this shows. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 25 Shevat 5775 21:32, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Think your getting confusted with the origin of the philosophers stone and apricot pits have nothing to do with it.--Aspro (talk) 23:33, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 3

All righty, I lied. Here's some more names for you lot. These ones were active after the War. Spink (who was also around in the 30s), Keggie, J. Hewitt, Pope, and Alexander. Oh, and also Butterworth in the 30s. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 25 Shevat 5775 16:15, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Spink was around in 1666. The Spink family were still in control as at 1962. --Tagishsimon (talk) 18:24, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Wow, and I walked by that building countless times. Should have remembered the name. Thanks! Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 25 Shevat 5775 18:27, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

James Keggie (1901-1985) was a London dealer in ethnographic art and friend of Jacob Epstein. Apart from that I must say I'm suffering from the comparative commonness of most of those other names. --Antiquary (talk) 19:47, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

And John Alexander Pope was a post-war authority on Far Eastern antiquities. The best I could find. --Antiquary (talk) 20:20, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Good finds, both, Antiquary. I give you John Hewitt, who "worked in the Belfast Museum and Art Gallery until, in 1957, he was appointed as Art Director of the Herbert Art Gallery and Museum in Coventry", besides being a poet and several other things. --Tagishsimon (talk) 20:30, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

Excellent finds, you guys, these really help a lot. I wish beers could be distributed as they are well-deserved! Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 25 Shevat 5775 21:34, 14 February 2015 (UTC)