Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2016 March 15

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March 15

How to know when to fly your flag at half mast

How do businesses, fire stations, police stations, and such in the US know when to raise their flags at half-mast? Is there some sort of e-mailing list that they're all on? Dismas|^(talk) 01:40, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Not "raise"..."lower" - and "half-staff", not "half-mast". See my extended comments below. SteveBaker (talk) 13:11, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

AFAIK each organization makes it's own decision. I suppose organizations with multiple locations may very well use emails to communicate this. Single locations likely just decide for themselves, based on the news from the previous day, and some might just copy a nearby location, and do whatever they do, even if they don't know why the flag is at half-mast. StuRat (talk) 01:59, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

There is quite a lot of detail in our article Half-mast#United_States. DuncanHill (talk) 02:16, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

There's an episode in A Dispatch from Reuter's which, though no doubt fictionalised, graphically illustrates this. Reuter's, via their private telegraph from the West of Ireland, reports the assassination of the Abraham Lincoln before anybody else in London has the news. This has a drastic effect on the stock market. But US officials have no such information and deny it. There is a scene in the film where an angry mob have seized Reuter, and he says "Let them look at the flag" - the flag on the Stock Exchange is lowered to half-mast as they watch, since conventional sources have now reported the death. --ColinFine (talk) 10:30, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Occasionally one will see flags at half-staff that are not supposed to be. For example, a school's flag lowered for the death of a school administrator. That is not appropriate. A national flag at half-staff signifies the nation is mourning.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 09:23, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Basically, either the US President or the Governor in the state in question has to issue a proclamation that flags should be lowered to half-staff...but there are a few situations where it's assumed that this will happen, so people don't wait for a formal proclamation. Roughly, these include: Death of a president, vice president, supreme-court judge, leader of the senate, a secretary of state, a member of congress - and also on Memorial Day and the anniversary of 9/11. There are a handful of other situations that are expected on the basis of former presidential proclamations - but they are widely ignored.

The DURATION of the lowering of the flag is also described by these rules - the death of a president gets a 30 day period, the death of a member of congress gets a measly one day.

So, for example, when first lady Nancy Reagan died recently, there was no pre-existing reason to lower flags to half staff on her behalf - but President Obama and a half dozen state governors issued a proclamation making it so - and most people seem to have complied.

If you happen to be responsible for a flag pole, you're not going to get notified of any of these things - I don't think there is a "mailing list" or anything. So I suppose you simply have to watch the news and the various web sites where presidential and state-governor proclamations are issued - which could be a pain.

That said, there is no law REQUIRING you to lower the flag when you "should" - and none preventing you from lowering it when your pet goldfish dies, if you so wish. Both situations are covered under your constitutional right to free "speech".

That last fact means that unless you're a part of government or the military and can be ordered to do it - then all of these various rules and proclamations are more in the realms of strong suggestions than anything else.

Things can get complicated when one flag is required to be lowered and another is not because there are other, contradicting quasi-rules about which flags are to be flown higher than others. (sigh) So the US flag still has to be flown higher than state flags...except for Texas that is flown at the same height...because it used to be a republic, or some such nonsense.

Technically, it's not "half mast" (unless your aboard a ship) it's "half staff".

One final note: Many people, under these circumstances, pull the flag halfway up the pole, then tie it off. That's not what the tradition demands - you're supposed to LOWER the flag to half-staff. So you pull it all the way up to the top, then lower it to the halfway mark and tie it off.

Outside of the US, all bets are off...and again there are a messy set of rules regarding how places like US embassies fly the flag when local tradition demands half-staff and the US regulations don't.

SteveBaker (talk) 13:09, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

One further observation: in British tradition, half-staff officially does not mean halfway-down the flagstaff, but at least one flag's height below the top of the staff/pole, but not lower than 1/3 of the staff height from the top. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:45, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

... and it's normally referred to as "half-mast" even when it's on a building (though I accept Steve's technicality mentioned above). Dbfirs 15:22, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

The College of Arms details the protocols for flying the Union flag at half-mast in the UK (except Scotland) here Hack (talk) 15:32, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

I agree that the term "half-mast" is more common - and in fact when I decided to mention the technicality, I had to go back and fix my answer in a couple of places where I'd actually typed "half-mast" myself! So, yeah - it's a technicality. But the entire subject is a technicality...with freedom of speech in the USA, if it's your flag and your flagpole, you can fly more or less any flag you like any way you like, fly it at 1/4 mast or 3/4 mast, sideways, backwards - and for no reason other than because you can't be bothered to haul the goddamned thing to the top of the pole...and nobody can (legally) stop you.

That said - our local home-owners' association has some really nasty rules about flag poles in our (Texas) neighborhood. We're only allowed to fly the US, Texas and "sporting-affiliation" flags! I plan to complain that as a UK citizen, I should be permitted to exercise my free speech rights to fly my own national flag at half-staff if I'm mourning the loss of a particularly important British person, for whom the US has refused to issue a proclamation. I can't wait to see the resulting kerfuffle!  :-) SteveBaker (talk) 15:02, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Bloody-minded HOAs; I hope you beat them. "Bloody-minded" is a very useful term I've adopted from my British friends; I'm not sure Americans totally know what it means in general though. Did you see Arcadia? One of my favorite episodes. --Trovatore (talk) 19:51, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for all the replies. I was a good Boy Scout and still remember most of the traditions and such around the flag, so didn't ask about the "whys". I never see the announcements in my regular news feeds, so I often wonder how someone knows how long it's supposed to be at half-staff/mast for. Therefore, my question was around the notification and not the hows or whys. I guess if I owned a flagpole, then I'd be more in tune with things of this sort. In the same way that I wouldn't expect someone in Florida to know what to do when a blizzard is approaching. Thanks again, Dismas|^(talk) 19:18, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Stairs in the Capitol Building

Who built the stairs in the rebuilt capital building after the war of 1812 burning? Was it a man by the name of James Grimes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A000:DFC0:9:146E:7C34:8F9C:D7E0 (talk) 02:37, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

If by "built" you mean did the actual construction work, then that would likely be more than just one person. Do you mean to ask who was in charge of rebuilding them ? StuRat (talk) 20:07, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm having a hard time finding anything helpful, partly because of a man named James W. Grimes, who was a politician at that time. Searching for james grimes and almost anything capitol-related gets you hits about the person I linked above. Is there a particular reason you want that name checked? If you give us your source, we might have more to go on (or we could at least help vet whether the source qualifies as a reliable source or not). Matt Deres (talk) 13:10, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Question about person

I noticed that on Donald Trumps wiki page It says he is a politician but has he ever held office? Does this still count?66.87.118.217 (talk) 19:58, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't know & doubt that he's held office, but he's a person involved in party politics, which satisfies the definition of politician on that article. Whether he's a person or a reptile is also somewhat uncertain.--Tagishsimon (talk) 20:04, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

On your last point, please read WP:BLP and consider redacting or editing your response. --Jayron32 23:13, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Wiktionary offers four definitions of the word "politician":

Politician:

1. One engaged in politics, especially an elected or appointed government official. -- Well, he's neither of the latter "especially" group - so we're on shaky ground here. This punts us off into what "politics" is:

   Politics:

   1. A methodology and activities associated with running a government, an organization, or a movement. -- Trump is definitely involved in 'a movement' - so yes.
   2. The profession of conducting political affairs. -- It's not (yet) really his profession.
   3. One's political stands and opinions. -- I don't think this is the meaning intended in the definition of "politician".
   4. Political maneuvers or diplomacy between people, groups, or organizations, especially involving power, influence or conflict. -- For sure.
2. Specifically, one who regards elected political office as a career. -- Clearly Trump isn't that yet. His career is entrepreneur, real-estate dealer, entertainment/hotel businesses.
3. A politically active or interested person. -- Well, he's certainly interested in politics - politically active too.
4. A sly or ingratiating person. -- OK - Jayron will get cross with me if I say what I think on this one.

So definition (3) seems to be the one that most clearly applies here - and in at least that sense of the word, he's a politician. Definition (1) is a bit hazy, and seems to make him not especially a politician - out on the margins of the practice of politics.

But, for sure, he's never held a political office of any kind. That's not unprecedented for US party presidential candidates. What is remarkable is that (as far as I can tell) the only time he's ever stood as a candidate for any kind of office is in his two prior (failed) presidential races and in a failed effort to be offered the job of Vice President to then presidential hopeful, George Bush. SteveBaker (talk) 02:29, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

• He's a candidate for political office, and a political donor. He's not yet an office holder. Plato was wrong when he thought concepts were Platonic ideals. There is no such "thing" as "The Politician". Concepts are contextual and man made.

If the issue comes up in conversation, simply say, I don't consider him a politician because he hasn't held office or give whatever your opinion is and the reason (the definition you are using) for it and, assuming they are rational, the person you are talking with will agree to disagree.

As for the article, the proper place to address this is the talk page, and to check what the weighty reliable sources say. But I wouldn't touch that quagmire with a ten foot pole. μηδείς (talk) 22:02, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Well, that's not true for all definitions of words relating to people and their occupations - but there is certainly enough slop in the definition of "politician" to allow one to argue either way. That would not be the case for (for example) "Doctor of Medicine" - where an actual piece of paper with all sorts of exciting and official stamps and signatures on it is a physical embodiment of that title. In cases such as this, anyone may claim to be a politician - and anyone can deny that anyone else is a politician - this only important in cases where it truly matters whether someone is or is not. In the case of Donald Trump, one should decide whether to vote for him or not in light of the undeniable fact that he's never held political office before, and upon whether you think his campaign and past history demonstrates whether he's capable of doing the job appropriately. You shouldn't be deciding your vote on the basis of whether anyone (himself included) uses the label "politician" - because it's a sloppy term for (in this case) a definite definite role.

My preferred definition is: Politician: Noun. Corruption from the original: polytêtian. Derivation: from the prefix poly- (ancient Greek - meaning 'two or more') and tête (Old French - meaning head or face). Meaning: politician - a person who is at least two-faced.

SteveBaker (talk) 14:45, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Well, "doctor of medicine" is a phrase, not a word. One could argue that "elected politician" is just as precise, while "doctor" alone is just as vague. μηδείς (talk) 23:35, 20 March 2016 (UTC)