Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2017 January 22

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January 22

Military tactics

Were there any battles where one of the belligerents dammed or diverted a river to facilitate the advance of his own troops (or to make it harder for the enemy to reinforce)? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 02:00, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Not quite what you asked for, but the British destroyed dams during WW2 to flood the Ruhr valley and impede German industrial production. See Operation Chastise. StuRat (talk) 02:04, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

• See Dam Warfare (is boring) -Arch dude (talk) 02:28, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
• And of course the Dutch relied on their ability to flood polders as needed, and used this tactic as late as WWII. See Hollandic Water Line. -Arch dude (talk) 02:39, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Even after that, in the Cold War, they prepared for that: IJssel Line. It involved damming entire rivers and diverting all water from the Rhine into one of its smaller distributaries. As the Sovjets never attacked it was never used. Preparing the defensive line for war would've taken about two weeks. PiusImpavidus (talk) 12:47, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

It would take too long during a battle. (Dammit Jim, ...) However, see the Civil War Bailey's Dam for a twist on the general idea. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:44, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks -- that was more-or-less what I was looking for (although I was thinking more of damming the river before the battle). A couple of related questions: (1) Were there any battles where, in preparation for the battle, the attacking side dammed (or diverted) the river so it would go dry, and then that side's land forces (infantry, tanks, whatever) advanced across the dry riverbed downstream of the dam (like the Parting of the Red Sea in reverse)? (2) Were there any examples of a belligerent damming or diverting a river in preparation for a battle during World War 1 or generally from the period of 1900-1925? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:B400:87C4:4EDE:B592 (talk) 05:53, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Two interesting essays here and here give quite a few instances of rivers being dammed or diverted in military operations. --Antiquary (talk) 10:27, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

There were the inundations during the Battle of the Yser in World War I, although the water didn't come from the river Yser itself. It was sea water, let in during high tide at the sluice complex at the mouth of the Yser. PiusImpavidus (talk) 13:15, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

As a prelude to Operation Infatuate, the Canadian and British invasion of Walcheren Island in 1944, RAF bombers blew holes in the dykes which protected the island, resulting in widespread flooding. The aim was to concentrate the German defenders on high ground and allow the Allies to use amphibious vehicles such as the DUKW and the Buffalo. Alansplodge (talk) 16:59, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

A bit more Googling found: Rivers as Weapons in Ancient War by Adrienne Mayor. Later battles (mostly sieges) involving diverted rivers include the Siege of Takamatsu (Japan, 1582 - to flood the castle), the Siege of King's Lynn (England, 1643 - to cut off the water supply [1]), the Siege of Roermond (now in the Netherlands, 1398 - the defenders had diverted the River Roer to form a moat [2]), the Siege of Urganj (modern Turkmenistan, 1220 - the Mongols diverted a river to destroy a town after its capture). Military Impacts on the Environment by Steve Dutch details several more modern examples in the American Civil War; the 1864 Red River Campaign saw the Confederates dig a canal to drain the river and prevent the operation of Union river gunboats, while the Union side built dams raise the water levels again and to allow their extraction. Alansplodge (talk) 17:36, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, all! This is fascinating! 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 07:58, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Not exactly a battle, but Exodus 14:28 records manipulation of the level of the Red Sea by one of the belligerents. Since the Hebrew Bible does not stop with book II of the Pentateuch, it seems to have been a successful tactical device. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 15:14, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Don't think the OP was looking for fictional accounts. 86.28.195.109 (talk) 15:38, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Unconfirmed rather than fictional -- but yes, I'm looking for more recent examples, especially ones from World War 1 and thereabouts (let's say 1900 through 1925). 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 07:56, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

We can pretty safely say it's fictional; if an entire Egyptian army were drowned in a single incident, there would be literal mountains of archaeological and historical evidence. No mainstream historian thinks the Exodus narrative is anything more than one of many, many myths told by ancient peoples to explain their origins. In fact, we can identify elements of the Exodus narrative lifted from other mythologies in the region. --47.138.163.230 (talk) 01:34, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

How likely is it that the Egyptian historians would have bragged about a devastating defeat? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:25, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

The Draining of the Mesopotamian Marshes particularly during the Iraq-Iran war by Saddam Hussein might be interesting to you. Dmcq (talk) 16:27, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Another one for the pile of examples that fall outside the time period you're looking for: Cao Cao diverted two rivers to flood Lü Bu's position during the Siege of Xiapi. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 18:55, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Since our efforts are supposed to help "improve Wikipedia" ...is there a potential category, list or something that could link these articles? --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:30F8:4CA4:3C72:A83 (talk) 18:34, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Farmland in the invasion areas of Normandy was flooded in WWII, e.g. behind Utah Beach. Sjö (talk) 12:57, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Experiment

I vaguely remember reading about an "experiment" where users on the English Wikipedia created sockpuppets, pretended to be new users and wrote shitty articles but I cannot find a link and Google is not helping me. Does anyone know where to find it? (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 16:36, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Offtopic rant about straw man
Here on Wikipedia we consider creating suckpuppets vandalism. People who do this cause harm to Wikipedia. Many volunteers have to spend their daily time to clean up these "shitty contributions" you seem to be so interested in. I'm pleased to learn that Google is not helping you with your "experiment". Jahoe (talk) 21:13, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

See WP:NEWT and its talkpage archives. Please note that the consensus was that this should not be done again. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:44, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. The intention of the people involved (at least 6 of them are administrators) was good but the result was bad. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 21:51, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

What went wrong? I've only just started looking at the archives but it seems to have started out fine. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 20:45, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

I agree, it sounds like a good initiative to me. And to correct the OP, they weren't "shitty" articles, they were articles that may have been stubs, or they may have had references. The point was that they didn't meet the criteria for deletion. --Viennese Waltz 08:40, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

@Viennese Waltz: You didn't correct me. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 17:46, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, it didn't take much further reading to discover just how bad things got. -165.234.252.11 (talk) 19:08, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Those weren't shitty articles! They were stubs! --Viennese Waltz 09:32, 26 January 2017 (UTC)