Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2017 January 28

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January 28

Dual citizen travelling without passports

Is use of a passport actually a legal requirement or just a logistical convenience? Say you are a dual citizen of Australia and Indonesia, and you have both your birth certificates and photo ID when flying between Darwin and Denpasar. Obviously it's probably an airline requirement and the gate clerks won't have the patience to deal with your thought experiment, but is it actually a *legal* requirement that you have a passport to enter or exit your own countries? What if you just sail - have you actually broken any law? 175.45.113.144 (talk) 00:44, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I have to show my passport to get back into my home country (at least, not without a lot of trouble), so I'm assuming they want the document that's specifically for passing the port of entry. I suppose it might vary from country to country, but I'm doubting it until I see evidence otherwise. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:02, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

@Ian.thomson: See Schengen Area. I own an identity card and a passport, and when traveling inside the Schengen Area I leave my passport at home. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 01:12, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Ah right, forgot about that. That's one of the things that's caused me to unconsciously think of the EU as a very loose quasi-country (de facto, not de jure). Ian.thomson (talk) 01:16, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

@Ian.thomson: I live in Amsterdam. To be honest I think of the US of A as a very loose quasi-country. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 01:37, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

That was kinda the intention, though the application, as you've cited, has not turned out nearly as well as it could've/should've (especially with the electoral college doing the opposite of what it was intended to prevent). Ian.thomson (talk) 01:45, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Here's an official web page for Canadian citizens and residents which says things like "the Government of Canada recommends that Canadian citizens travel with a valid Canadian passport". In other words, in the case of Canada, attempting to travel without one is not breaking the law, just a stupid idea and likely to cause you problems. Other countries may differ, however. (Side note: notice how on that page the word "international" is used to refer to travel to countries other than the US. In Canada, things to do with the US are often treated differently than things to do with other other countries.) --76.71.6.254 (talk) 01:58, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Yes, and it's reciprocal. Until 9-11 no passport was required of US citizens traveling to and from Canada. This was convenient, as the shortest route from Detroit, MI to Buffalo, NY is actually through Canada. StuRat (talk) 14:14, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Freedom of movement under United States law#International travel claims "1978 amendment to the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 made it illegal to enter or depart the United States without an issued passport even in peacetime". Our article Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 links [1] which seems to confirm it's the case. There's some info here [2] about travelling without passports although it's mostly about refugees. Note, a related question is what actually happens if you somehow manage to do it. For example, if you somehow arrive back in your country without any passport. Sure if it's illegal like in the US maybe you can be prosecuted for it. But I suspect although can't be sure that in many countries they shouldn't actually deport you if you can provide credible evidence you're a citizen. Heck possibly they should never deport you if you're a citizen, so even if you just assert it, they probably should investigate the claim (whether they actually do or not may vary) rather than just deport you. Nil Einne (talk) 13:23, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Except that Mexico and Canada are among the "such limitations and exceptions" allowed in that act. You can still travel by ground or sea to and from either of those without a passport although a enhanced ID is required. Rmhermen (talk) 20:27, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

In case there is some confusion, I never intended to suggest there weren't exceptions. I considered mentioning them but decided it didn't matter since the original question which I replied to simply asked "legal requirement or just a logistical convenience" and didn't say anything about the US or Mexico or Canada. And the answer to the original question seems to be that it is a legal requirement in the US nearly all of the time (in terms of places or types of journeys not frequency of trips). Nil Einne (talk) 06:42, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

For Australia, there is a constitutional case that (indirectly - as it was about tax) confirms that re-entry into Australia is a right of a citizen that the government cannot deny while that person holds Australian citizenship. However, the government can do what it needs to do to confirm that the person is an Australian citizen. If you do not have a passport and do not have a good explanation for why you do not have one, the Border Farce official would rightly be pretty suspicious. --165.225.80.115 (talk) 18:14, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Goldfinger (NOT James Bond)

I've read somewhere that Ian Fleming based the villain Auric Goldfinger on a real-life architect named Enzo Goldfinger (who, so the story goes, found out about it and demanded that Fleming change the villain's name -- to which Fleming replied that he'd be glad to do it, but only if he could change the name to "Goldprick"). Is any part of this story true -- in particular, was there ever any architect named Enzo Goldfinger? And if there was, then was it his real name, or was it a nickname, e.g. due to his use of gold-plated decorative elements on all his buildings? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F868:9F8D:812:676B (talk) 06:10, 28 January 2017 (UTC) Never mind -- it turns out that the architect's name was Erno Goldfinger (which was his real name, not a nickname), not Enzo -- and the story is mostly true, as per the article. 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F868:9F8D:812:676B (talk) 06:13, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't know about Goldprick but there's an Austin Powers version, Goldmember, who paints his victims' genitals gold. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 06:34, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

See also Henry_Blofeld#Early_life --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:55, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Interesting! I wonder whether that guy also complained, or whether he took it in good humor? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:F88D:DE34:7772:8E5B (talk) 03:17, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Super cheap to buy things from China on Aliexpress - how is it economically feasible for Western postal systems?

It's really cheap to buy some things on Aliexpress (not everything is cheaper though). https://www.aliex press.com/item/4-channel-IIC-I2C-Logic-Level-Converter-Bi-Directional-Module-5V-to-3-3V-For-Arduino/32309390020.html Here is something selling for 0.20 GBP which is less than the cheapest form of postage offered by the UK Royal Mail. Thus, does this kind of one-sided arrangement get subsidised by the Royal Mail and ther Western postal systems? Edit: I had to break the link because Wikipedia has it on their spam list ----Seans Potato Business 13:52, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

If you read the ad closely I suspect that they add postage fees and/or that you must buy in quantity. (They might be extra sneaky and not mention that until you are at the final "buy" button.) StuRat (talk) 14:04, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

That's bullcrap. Shipping and minumum quantity is always clear on AliExpress, and does not only appear after you are at the buy button. Nil Einne (talk) 15:34, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Is it still "super cheap" after those costs are figured in? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:59, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs: Go to aliexpress.com/item/4-channel-IIC-I2C-Logic-Level-Converter-Bi-Directional-Module-5V-to-3-3V-For-Arduino/32309390020.html then click on Shipping & Payment and calculate your shipping cost by country/region and quantity. (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 19:08, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I've bought stuff from sellers on AliExpress many times and you can genuinely buy and have these delivered for just 20p each. I actually ordered three and paid 60p but that wasn't because there's a minimum order value. --Seans Potato Business 20:32, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I've wondered this myself when buying from dx.com. Their prices have gone up a bit in the last year, but you used to get incredibly cheap stuff all with free shipping all the way from Hong Kong. It's amazed me that I could by a usb adapter for $0.50, and have it shipped all the way here for free. ApLundell (talk) 20:42, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

• Answer: Subsidized post and a few other reasons. See first few articles when searching google.--TMCk (talk) 20:23, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! --Seans Potato Business 20:32, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

If it's subsidized, you're still paying for it, through your taxes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:53, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

That depends on who's subsidizing it. If the Chinese government is doing so, then the Chinese pay the short-term cost, not you. Of course, if the long-term goal of that subsidy is to destroy the competitors in other nations, then, if successful, that may cost us all. StuRat (talk) 00:42, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

JD.com's delivery drones can carry 15kg for 50km. Amazon.com's can carry 2.5kg for 25km. I'd rather live in the dystopian future where I don't have to book five extra flights for a measly bag of play sand. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:40, 2 February 2017 (UTC)