Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2023 November 30
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November 30[edit]
Somnology and thermoregulation[edit]
Our article on somnology doesn't say anything the role of thermoregulation, which is odd, given that it's often one of the first things you read about in the informal literature. I'm aware that most of the material on sleep science sucks, but something happened to me last night that makes me wonder how much is known or being investigated in terms of thermoregulation, sleep hygiene, and sleeping disorders in general. What led me down this path is the following: I burned my hand while cooking last night. Since I tend to avoid any kind of pain medicine, I wrapped a reusable ice pack around my wrist and went to bed. You can imagine how uncomfortable it was, trying to get to sleep with a frozen sensation on my hand. What surprised me, however, is that not only did I go to sleep, but I had an incredibly restful, deep, relaxing, and rejuvenating sleep, to the point when I woke up, I jumped out of bed fully energized and ready to go. Did the frozen ice pack somehow stimulate the thermoregulation needed to obtain this sleep state? You would have thought this would have interfered with my sleep, but it did the opposite. Any ideas? Viriditas (talk) 19:43, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- My first thought is, if you burned yourself to the point where it was hard to get to sleep, why didn't you go to the Emergency Room? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 00:14, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- Do you cook, my friend? I burn myself all the time. I'm doing just fine. Most of the scars on my hands are from cutting myself with a knife (usually bread), not from burns. The emergency room isn't needed for superficial, first-degree burns. Yes, it is super painful, but it's entirely manageable with reusable cold packs that you keep in the freezer. Viriditas (talk) 01:47, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- That's more detail than you gave in your original question. If you decide to "tough it out", that's your business. If it was just a light burn, maybe it was sufficiently healed by morning. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:43, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- Can we get back to my question? Viriditas (talk) 08:36, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- Do you plan to ask your doctor about this? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- Bugs, you're going down the wrong rabbit hole, and getting over-personal to boot. The question is not about minor injury treatment too trivial for professional attention, it's about current scientific knowledge pertaining to sleep and temperature. I for one find Viriditas's actual question interesting, and hope that someone can supply a relevant answer. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.245.32 (talk) 14:23, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- Info online says that decreasing your core temperature before sleeping helps to increase melatonin. Viriditas (talk) 19:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- Isn't the causal relation the other way around, in which an increase in one's melatonin levels decreases one's core temperature (indirectly, by shifting one's circadian rhythm)? The core temperature is homeostatically maintained; other than by taking drugs, there is little we can do to decrease it voluntarily. --Lambiam 07:33, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- It works both ways, apparently: "...cold temperature is the major factor to induce melatonin production in hamsters. Cold temperature per se can upregulate the expressions of melatonin synthetic gene AANAT and ASMT, which are the important enzymes for melatonin biosynthesis. The elevated melatonin levels induced by the cold exposure in hamster in turn, improve the immuno-responses of the animals with increased levels of IL1, 6, and 10 as well CD3. In addition, melatonin as a potent antioxidant and thermogenic agent would improve the survival chance of animals during cold weather...For decades, the regulatory mechanisms of melatonin synthesis in the pineal gland were focused on the impact of light exposure or photoperiodic changes. Definitely, light and photoperiod changes are the major regulators of melatonin production in pineal gland of vertebrates. However, what is the influence of temperature, particularly the cold temperature on melatonin production in animals is virtually unknown. Temperature as an important factor of the seasonal changes in addition to the photoperiod should be given a consideration regarding its effects on melatonin synthesis and its potential biological consequences. In the current study, the effects of climate changes including photoperiod and temperature on melatonin production in hamster are systemically investigated. Particularly, the influence of cold temperature on melatonin production and its association on immuno-responses in these animals are also studied."[1] Viriditas (talk) 08:37, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- The hamsters involved in that study were Mesocricetus auratus, which are a hibernating species. The effects of cold temperatures on hibernating species cannot be extrapolated to other mammal species, for which a cold ambient temperature should have very little effect on their core temperature. --Lambiam 08:36, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
- It's the weekend, so may I be allowed to have fun with this?
- Hamsters may be more similar to humans than mice in some respects.[2]
- Early humans may have survived the harsh winters by hibernating.[3]
- Thank you. Viriditas (talk) 09:06, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
- So be careful with the ice packs or you may only wake up when spring comes around. --Lambiam 22:03, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
- It's the weekend, so may I be allowed to have fun with this?
- The hamsters involved in that study were Mesocricetus auratus, which are a hibernating species. The effects of cold temperatures on hibernating species cannot be extrapolated to other mammal species, for which a cold ambient temperature should have very little effect on their core temperature. --Lambiam 08:36, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
- It works both ways, apparently: "...cold temperature is the major factor to induce melatonin production in hamsters. Cold temperature per se can upregulate the expressions of melatonin synthetic gene AANAT and ASMT, which are the important enzymes for melatonin biosynthesis. The elevated melatonin levels induced by the cold exposure in hamster in turn, improve the immuno-responses of the animals with increased levels of IL1, 6, and 10 as well CD3. In addition, melatonin as a potent antioxidant and thermogenic agent would improve the survival chance of animals during cold weather...For decades, the regulatory mechanisms of melatonin synthesis in the pineal gland were focused on the impact of light exposure or photoperiodic changes. Definitely, light and photoperiod changes are the major regulators of melatonin production in pineal gland of vertebrates. However, what is the influence of temperature, particularly the cold temperature on melatonin production in animals is virtually unknown. Temperature as an important factor of the seasonal changes in addition to the photoperiod should be given a consideration regarding its effects on melatonin synthesis and its potential biological consequences. In the current study, the effects of climate changes including photoperiod and temperature on melatonin production in hamster are systemically investigated. Particularly, the influence of cold temperature on melatonin production and its association on immuno-responses in these animals are also studied."[1] Viriditas (talk) 08:37, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- Isn't the causal relation the other way around, in which an increase in one's melatonin levels decreases one's core temperature (indirectly, by shifting one's circadian rhythm)? The core temperature is homeostatically maintained; other than by taking drugs, there is little we can do to decrease it voluntarily. --Lambiam 07:33, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- Info online says that decreasing your core temperature before sleeping helps to increase melatonin. Viriditas (talk) 19:32, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- Bugs, you're going down the wrong rabbit hole, and getting over-personal to boot. The question is not about minor injury treatment too trivial for professional attention, it's about current scientific knowledge pertaining to sleep and temperature. I for one find Viriditas's actual question interesting, and hope that someone can supply a relevant answer. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.194.245.32 (talk) 14:23, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- Do you plan to ask your doctor about this? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:35, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- Can we get back to my question? Viriditas (talk) 08:36, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- That's more detail than you gave in your original question. If you decide to "tough it out", that's your business. If it was just a light burn, maybe it was sufficiently healed by morning. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:43, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- Do you cook, my friend? I burn myself all the time. I'm doing just fine. Most of the scars on my hands are from cutting myself with a knife (usually bread), not from burns. The emergency room isn't needed for superficial, first-degree burns. Yes, it is super painful, but it's entirely manageable with reusable cold packs that you keep in the freezer. Viriditas (talk) 01:47, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
- A couple of days ago, I paused to research the link between being cold and sleep. From the top results I read this Cleveland Clinic article: [4] and then a cited research article that, at a glance, was more nuanced. Frustrated, I moved on. Inferring from what the doctor said though from what I remember of it, I gather it is possible the ice simply enhanced the initiation of REM which naturally occurs due to a cyclic body temperature with our circadian rhythms. Modocc (talk) 23:51, 3 December 2023 (UTC)