Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Charles Green (Australian soldier)

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Article promoted by Eddie891 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 20:20, 13 December 2020 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Charles Green (Australian soldier)[edit]

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Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (talk)

Charles Green (Australian soldier) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Green was the youngest Australian Army battalion commander during WWII, and the only commanding officer of a battalion of the post-WWII Royal Australian Regiment to have been killed on active service (in Korea). The foundations of this article were laid by retired Milhist coord AnotherClown some years ago, but I was prompted by the recent 70th anniversary of Green's death to bring it up to GA, which it just passed. Have at it. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:52, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Images appear to be freely licensed (t · c) buidhe 14:34, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Nick-D[edit]

Given Green's reputation as a 'soldier's soldier' who is relatively little known today by the general public, it's great to see this at ACR. I have the following comments:

  • The first sentence is a bit over-complex
Split it. The notability is mostly the youngest bn CO thing. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:50, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Royal Australian Regiment in the second sentence
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:50, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's rather a lot of 'He's in the 'Early life' section - I'd suggest mixing this up a bit
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:50, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The British and Commonwealth forces blocked the German forces at the Gorge but were quickly overwhelmed by the larger German forces," - this is a bit confusing - did they stop the German advance guard, but then get defeated by the main body?
  • This sentence is also over-long - I'd suggest splitting it
Done, and clarified. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:50, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While some of the battalion was able to rejoin the main forces withdrawing south to embark on ships, a significant number of the battalion" - bit repeditive
Fixed. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:29, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • How did he pass through neutral Turkey? Did the Turkish Government facilitate this in some way?
Good question, added a bit about that. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:29, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • What was Green's role in the 2/2nd during the Greek campaign? Was he an infantry company commander?
Another excellent question, but neither Long nor Barter say, the war diary is confused at best, and I don't have access to Purple over Green, which might say. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:22, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
G'day, Pratten (p. 239) provides: "selected in October as one of the original platoon commanders of the 2/2nd Battalion. He served with the 2/2nd in Libya and Greece, and by the end of 1944 he had commanded a company in action, been seconded as an instructor to the First Australian Army Tactical School and the Junior Wing of the LHQ Tactical School and had completed the senior course at the latter". On p. 240, Pratten also provides: "Many in the 2/2nd Battalion lamented Green's loss, where his reputation as a commander of determination, skill and integrity was firmly established". This to me indicates he commanded a company in Greece. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:52, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I agree it looks like that, but potentially he could have commanded a company of the 2/11th between 30 December 1944 and 9 March 1945 when he took over as CO. I'd rather have something more definitive that that to state unequivocally that he commanded a company in Greece. I'll have another look at the war diary for March, the April one mentions some coy comd names, but not all. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:00, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There would have to be quite a bit of OR here, as the war diary gives the names of OCs A (Caldwell) , B (King), C (Buckley) and D (Hendry) Coys, so I'm just not seeing a way in which Green commanded a company at the Gorge. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:21, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
G'day, Pratten's words "by the end of 1944" seem to me to imply that coy command in action couldn't have been with the 2/11th; ergo it could only have been in Greece (particularly when read with the comments on p. 240). Just my interpretation, though. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:59, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The ADB statement about his youth as a battalion commander in the notes refers to the Australian Army, while the current wording of the article suggests it was any army. I'm pretty sure that the ADB is correct about Australia, but that there were likely younger battalion commanders in other armies (the Germans in particular often had young COs by 1945, for obvious reasons)
I think this is fixed now, I assume you were talking about the note? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:26, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's right. Nick-D (talk) 09:37, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After an airstrike and artillery bombardment, the 2/11th company" - this is a bit clunky - can the company which was detached be named instead? If this isn't in Long, it should be in the battalion war diary on the AWM's website.
B Company, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:49, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " With the establishment of the Regular Army, Green returned to full-time military service on 6 January 1949" - do we know what position he held (could Regular Army officers command CMF battalions?)
Good question, but nothing in sources. Unfortunately, his personnel records are not digitised as yet. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:49, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd suggest elaborating a little in the 'Korean War' section on 3 RAR's condition at the outbreak of war - as I understand it, it wasn't really ready for combat, and presumably its CO was considered not up to the job? (or at least an unnecessary risk when there were lots of proven battalion commanders back in Australia - replacing him seems unusually ruthless for the post-war army).
Added something on the condition of the battalion, Walsh had been CO for a year, and yes while it seems ruthless, I can see the Army being keen to put their absolute best man in the job. Walsh also faltered when he took over after Green was killed and was relieved by Coad on the side of the road with Ferguson appointed as CO, so maybe they got that right. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:03, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can more information be provided on how Green is a source of inspiration for modern soldiers? Is Green used as a case study for enlisted soldiers and/or officers in the training programs, for instance?
  • I note also that the statement that "serving Australian soldiers remain inspired" is cite to a work which is now 24 years old, so I'm not sure about the wording here - I'm pretty sure that it still holds though. Nick-D (talk) 05:17, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've addressed the last two points by rewriting what Barter says and placing it in the time it was written, I did find a recent DRA speech by Angus Campbell in which he references Green a a citizen soldier, but I couldn't find anything about current programs. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:03, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I've addressed all your points as preferred, Nick-D, but see what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:05, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support I've made a couple of minor tweaks, and am very pleased to support this article's promotion to A-class. Nick-D (talk) 08:31, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by AustralianRupert[edit]

Support: Nice work with this article, PM. In addition to Nick's comments, I have the following suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 06:34, 5 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • "who were both Australia-born" --> "Australian-born"?
  • suggest splitting the second paragraph in the Middle East section
  • "The fighting around Chongju was the heaviest undertaken by the Australians since entering the war" --> "The fighting around Chongju was the heaviest undertaken by the Australians since they had entered the war"?
These done, I think. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:09, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Source review: all look reliable to me based on authors or publishers; a couple of minor comments:
    • "Canberra, Australian Capital Territory" (Bartlett) v. "Canberra" (Long)
    • the ISBN for Olwyn Green's book is inconsistently hyphenated
    • the AWM entry for the 2/11th is slightly different from the 2/2nd (Units v units) and in regards to the position of the archive url link
    • ext links all work; there are no dabs (no action required)
    • all information appears to be appropriately referenced (no action required)
All done I reckon, AustralianRupert. See what you think? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:21, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added my support above. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:09, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

G’day guys, thanks for your excellent comments. I have been unexpectedly admitted to hospital to have my gall bladder removed (done successfully today), so there might be a bit of s delay in getting to your comments. Back into it when I can sit at the desk again, which will hopefully only be a few days. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 11:41, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

G'day, PM, no worries -- sorry to hear that! Hope you have a speedy recovery. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:40, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's not good, and I hope that you're soon on the mend. Nick-D (talk) 10:19, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Hog Farm[edit]

I'll take a look at this. Hog Farm Bacon 17:22, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • "he 2/2nd Battalion was deployed to the Middle East in February 1940; however, after accidentally injuring himself, Green missed out on taking part in 6th Division's first combat action, which took place during the North African campaign between December 1940 and January 1941" - is a very long sentence. Can it be split?
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:44, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and on the 22nd the battalion arrived in Greece to repel the anticipated German invasion. The battalion was deployed north to face the German assault, which began on 6 April" - Which part of Greece?
Macedonia, added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:44, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "While elements of the battalion was able to rejoin the main forces" - I have a gut feeling the was should be a were
Dead right, not sure what I was doing there. Might be the Endone. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:44, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know which draft of the 2/11 he returned to Australia with?
It seems from the war diary that he stayed right to the end, which is what you would generally expect of a CO unless he was ordered elsewhere. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:44, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pusan is overlinked
unlinked. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:44, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Evacuated to hospital, he died of his wounds on the following day, aged 30," - Actually, two days later.
Someone has fixed this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:44, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's it from me. Hog Farm Bacon 06:24, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, Hog Farm, all done I reckon. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 22:44, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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