Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Fort Phantom Hill

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 19:20, 15 July 2023 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Fort Phantom Hill[edit]

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Vami IV (talk)

Fort Phantom Hill (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Toolbox

At long last, my second submission for A-Class of the US Army's many posts in the vast state of Texas. In a time and place with a lot of bad jobs and offices, Fort Phantom Hill was maybe the worst. Isolated, barren, and abundant in nothing but boredom, it was quickly abandoned, unfortunately setting a tone for Jones County, Texas. This is another National Register property, too, and a rather unique one, too. A dozen chimneys and tree stone buildings in the middle of nowhere, on a ghost hill. Hope you all enjoy. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 18:45, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pickersgill-Cunliffe support[edit]

  • Subpost should be a proper wikt link
  • A direction for forts Worth and Duncan would be useful, e.g. "the southerly Fort Worth..." or whatever is correct
  • Might as well give Marcy his rank as you do with other officers
  • "One of those locations"
  • "what he had witnessed was actually"...and thus it was not actually abundant in water and game?
  • Correct. I have nixed this clause and revised the preceding one. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 01:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Chronology slightly confusing. Why does the article describe the army building Fort Phantom Hill in paragraph 2 and then go through this again in more detail in paragraph 3? Would make more sense to remove the list of second line forts and move straight from identifying the Clear Fork location to Belknap/Smith turning up and ordering construction
  • I am confused. Paragraph two of the article is context about the line of forts to which Phantom Hill belonged. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 01:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "assigned command of the area by the time he assumed command of the Department of Texas on September 16, 1851" this isn't the most clear of sentences. Considering we have a date for Smith ordering the construction, there's no harm in saying "On November 3, 1851, General PFS, in command of the Department of Texas, ordered..." or something similar
  • Are we meant to know what the Pecan Bayou is?
  • No need to repeat years all the time; only once at first mention or at the beginning of each paragraph is fine
  • I don't think the fact he was a brevet lieutenant colonel is that relevant to an article about the fort Abercrombie was starting
  • Could be made clearer in main text that Camp on the Clear Fork of the Brazos and Fort Phantom Hill are the same thing (if I'm reading note a correctly)
  • "creation of a crude road to Fort Chadbourne" a direction or similar would be useful here, all dependant on whether you agree with my previous comment about introducing the second line forts!
  • "until February 1852" could be clearer as to whether they stop attempting in February 1852 or else
  • Source is unclear; states, "Smith's choice of the site [...] was not met with great enthusiasm by the officers of the Fifth Infantry, and until February 1852, they entertained some hopes it would be moved...". Could be OR on my part to render this as "until February 1852 they asked for the fort's abandonment". Thoughts? –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 01:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ibid repetition of years
  • To clarify, despite the changes in commander, is the garrison still made up of the 5th Infantry until the introduction of the 2nd Dragoons?
  • Four companies of infantry replaces by one of dragoons? Is this not a significant decrease in garrison size?
  • Yes. The fort rapidly declined in importance, as evidenced by the depreciating rank of its CO. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 01:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I read these initial sections I found it disconcerting to not be informed of any of the architecture/structure of the fort. Believe it would be much more useful to have the grounds and architecture split up as necessary between the "Use as permanent garrison" and "Preservation" sections
  • Will consider with input on the February 1852 matter (would be the best place to move the relevant portion). –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 01:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've added a detail about the fort's architecture to pad out the regular section and better tie the whole article together. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 22:31, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The fort was ordered abandoned" do we know by who?
  • No; I assume the order was issued by the commander of the Department of Texas, but none of my sources state this. They just say that the army left on 6 April 1854. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 01:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "travelers through Texas" I think we can assume the travellers are going through Texas without stating the obvious!
  • minus Removed or perhaps the fort is a stop for inter-dimensional travelers, too –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 01:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • What's the "2nd Cavalry Regiment"? Our article says it was still called the 2nd Dragoons in 1856
  • Oops. I uncritically lifted that name from Wright when I had previously, correctly, labeled that unit as the 2nd Dragoons. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 01:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sentence beginning "Major General David E. Twiggs..." little confused here; Twiggs, according to our article, eventually becomes a Confederate. Why is he surrendering equipment etc and abandoning the state, and to who?
  • Ah. Twiggs was surrendering the Federal garrisons and their inventories to the Confederates, specifically the secessionist government of Texas. Because he himself was sympathetic to the Confederacy, he was commissioned a general in the CSA's army and then almost immediately died of illness. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 01:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why have you stopped giving soldiers their ranks suddenly? McCulloch, Barry, etc
  • If the fort had been burned, what exactly is Barry actually stationing his troops in?
  • Is there a more precise date for the departure of McCulloch's troops and the arrival of the Frontier Regiment?
  • No, unfortunately, not with the sources I presently have. That said, Frontier Defense in the Civil War: Texas' Rangers and Rebels may have something. I'll look tonight or tomorrow. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 01:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "who also encamped at Fort Phantom Hill were also increasingly pulled away" needs rewording
  • "heralding its defeat" there is no other "it" in this paragraph so far, so one assumes the federal government has just been defeated because Confederate forces are surrendering to it!
  • "Relationship with Jones County" might be better renamed "Civilian use" or similar, imo
  • Suggest preservation is a level 2 rather than level 3 heading
  • "who popularized the fort" How? Not sure what this actually means
  • More year repetition here
  • What is a marker commemorating the fort doing in the grounds of Jones County Courthouse? What's the connection?
  • I have no idea. Were I to guess, somebody probably thought it would be more visible at the courthouse than at the ruins in the middle of nowhere. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 01:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Were there any defensive structures/fortifications?
  • No. Forts in Texas were designed as cantonments, without actual fortifications. I would have added this if I had or could remember a source describing the military architecture of Phantom Hill. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 01:55, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I may have acquired a source or combination thereof that will allow me to shed some light on this. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 22:04, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a lot of photos of the fort on commons, suggest adding some

@Vami IV: Hi, that's all I have for now. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 20:22, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Will get to these soon! Today or tomorrow. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 06:33, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Vami IV: You haven't responded to all my comments but it's been a while, so just checking whether you have in fact covered them all? Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:43, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. Should be addressed now. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 19:39, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Vami IV: Happy with these changes, supporting; do however consider adding Benjamin McCulloch's rank too. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 12:43, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Indy beetle[edit]

  • This 1913 article from The Houston Post mentions a B. Paisley as the then-owner of the site who actually lived there with his family. He served the roving journalist who the wrote the article dinner in the old officer's house, which was used as his kitchen, and also used another old structure as a stable. These 1918 and 1919 news items reference a Fort Phantom Hill Oil Company conducting exploratory drilling operations in the area. Mentions of oil drilling drop off sharply by 1920 per newspapers.com. Not sure exactly what to make of all this, but it seems the site wasn't totally abandoned after 1900. -Indy beetle (talk) 22:11, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I do not know how I missed this comment. I must have been running on fumes. I will look into all this tonight. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 21:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Indy beetle: Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 23:35, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @Indy beetle: Howdy? –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 00:32, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry for the delay, looks good, mark my comment as resolved. -Indy beetle (talk) 06:48, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Indy beetle, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:45, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not offering a full support since I don't feel familiar enough with this subject, but I'm not opposing the nom. I just wanted to note something which needed clarification and I am satisfied that it has been handled. -Indy beetle (talk) 23:19, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers Indy beetle. I thought so, but wanted to check. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:05, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Source review[edit]

  • MOS:PAGERANGE requires the full page numbers be used for both the first and last pages. While not relevant to this review, I'll note that it requires the same for year ranges.
  • I wish I had known about this before I had several Featureds under my belt. Fixed now. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 16:44, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • References otherwise consistent
  • Sources consistently formatted
  • Frazer and Field are known to me as highly RS.
  • Spot checks not done.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:18, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • It might be good to add the date of publication or updating to all the Texas Handbook Online pages.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:19, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was referring to the publication and revision dates for the articles themselves in the upper right-hand corner.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:32, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Heads up, I may add American Forts: Architectural Form and Function as a reference for context and the architecture/layout of the fort. I'll also confer with an essay in the South West Quarterly Review about US military architecture in Texas in the time period and see if, or how much, could be added to the article with both sources. I'll update here if/when I add more material. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 03:48, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 07:45, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 22:31, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It looks fine.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:32, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Image review - pass

Comments Support from Hawkeye7[edit]

Looks good. Just a few bits and pieces.

  • "The United States Army began to establish outposts and construct roads in Texas during the war to protect and facilitate white settlements and traffic in the state and its border with Mexico." I think you're trying to say too much in one sentence. What is meant by "protect and facilitate ... traffic in the state"?
  • Cut this sentence done some and clarified with what's left. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 02:07, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • And what border with Mexico are we referring to? The 1845 border or the 1848 one?
  • "an unprecedented number of white migrants" I don't think they were all white. Consider clarifying what you mean here.
  • "by a lack of usable wood and water" Aren't we near a river?
    • Yes, but the key word is "usable". Also, no, not really. The Army thought there was a river because Marcy passed through the area following a time of abnormally high rainfall. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 19:19, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Ah okay. This happened in Australia a lot. An abiding scene from Australian history is Charles Sturt setting out to explore what he thought was an inland sea (but which we now know to be Lake Eyre). When he came back, the lake had shrunk considerably. He missed it completely, and wound up wandering what we now call Sturt's Stony Desert with a row boat. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:49, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Pestilence caused by the poor supply of food and water also plagued the garrison." What diseases are we talking about here? The only ones I am aware of due to lack of food is malnutrition.
  • If it was unfortified, why was it was it called a fort?

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:39, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Pendright[edit]

Back soon - Pendright (talk) 01:04, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Lead:

  • After its final abandonment in 1875, a town was established at Fort Phantom Hill that , after flourish[ed] ing in the 1870s , [but] ceased to exist by 1900.
Suggest the above changes
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Following the fort's purchase by a John Guitar in 1928, there was renewed public interest in the fort that led to its opening to the public in 1972.
Drop the "a" between by and John
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1997, Fort Phantom Hill was transferred to the Fort Phantom Hill Foundation.
Was it sold or gifted?

Use as military outpost:

  • The United States defeated Mexico, and in the treaty that ended the war in 1848 annexed what is presently the Southwestern United States.[4]
"It" annexed "and then paid for" what is
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • To protect those migrants, the US Army established a line of forts running for 800 miles (1,300 km) from Fort Worth in the northeast to Fort Duncan in the southwest in 1848–49 and then another, 200 miles (320 km) west, from 1850 to 1852.
See if you can live with these changes:
To protect these migrants, the US Army established a line of forts running for 800 miles (1,300 km) from Fort Worth, in the northeast, to Fort Duncan, in the southwest, in 1848–49 and then another 200 miles (320 km) west during 1850 to 1852.
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The forts of that line – Belknap, Chadbourne, Clark, Davis, Mason, McKavett, Phantom Hill, Stockton, and Terrett – were established in the early 1850s at places Marcy recommended.
of "this" line
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • One of those locations was the Clear Fork of the Brazos River, which Marcy erroneously noted in 1849 as possessing abundant water and game.[14]
of "these" locations
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Use as permanent garrison, 1851–1854

  • He began construction of what became Fort Belknap,[16] and identified a nearby tributary, Pecan Bayou, as ideal for a second post on the Brazos.
and "who" identified?
Belknap; specified now. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • On November 3, General Persifor Frazer Smith, commander of the Department of Texas,[18] ordered that an outpost be created upon the "Phantom Hill" overlooking the Clear Fork,[19] 20 mi (32 km) from Pecan Bayou.[20]
Link Clear Fork - Clear Fork Brazos River
Already done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Construction of Fort Phantom Hill began immediately and lasted until June 1852, and was followed by the creation of a crude road to Fort Chadbourne, to the southwest.[22]
and "it" was followed
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Construction and basic life at the fort was complicated by a lack of usable wood and water—which the garrison could not abate even by digging an 80-foot (24 m) well[23][24]—and of game and fertile soil in the area.
Suggest breaking this sentence into two sentences along these or similar lines -> Construction and basic life at the fort were complicated by "the" lack of usable wood and water, game, and fertile soil in the area. The garrison could not abate the water problem even by digging an 80-foot (24 m) well.
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Before being razed, the fort buildings consisted of jacales with the exception of the officers' quarters, which were built of timber, and the magazine, guardhouse, and commissary, which were built of stone.[27][28]
Drop comma which
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stone was sourced from a quarry on the Elm Fork on the Brazos River while blackjack oak was transported from up to 40 miles (64 km) away.[13]
"at" the Elm Fork
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Use as satellite post, 1871–1875:

  • In June, the remaining Confederate forces in Texas formally surrendered to the US Army, which reoccupied the state.[44]
Drop comma which and replace with "who"
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • After initially ignoring Texans' concerns about indigenous raiding in favor of reoccupying pre-war installations along the border with Mexico, the US Army returned to the frontier and began expanding its presence there in 1866–67.[45][46]
"prewar" is one word
Fixed. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Civilian use:

  • As the fort neared completion, more settlers established themselves in the area, but not enough to justify its retention by the US Army in 1854.[52]
but not eough "of them" to
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Preservation:

  • In 1928, the grounds of Fort Phantom Hill were purchased by a John Guitar, who then sold the land in 1969 to his grandson, Jim Alexander.
Drop the a before John
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Alexanders opened the fort to the public in the same year[,] and, in 1997, [they] transferred its grounds to the Fort Phantom Foundation.
  • Suggest the above changes
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question -> was it gifted or sold?
It was gifted. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:23, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ths it for mow - Pendright (talk) 20:54, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]


@Vami IV: Thank you for your responses to my comments, however, I do have some issues with the one that follows:

The United States defeated Mexico, and in the treaty that ended the war in 1848 purchased and annexed what is presently the Southwestern United States.
Annex means to "add territory to one's own territory by appropriation", so it is inacturate to say it was purchased.
Here is one way to rephrase the sentence -> The United States defeated Mexico, and in the treaty that ended the war in 1848 the U.S. was allowed to retain the territory that it had annexed but, in turn, had to pay Mexico 15-million dollars for what is presently the Southwestern United States. Pendright (talk) 03:18, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 22:14, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your curremt version -
The United States defeated Mexico, and in the treaty that ended the war in 1848 annexed what is presently the Southwestern United States in exchange for $15 million (equivalent to $507 million in 2022[4]).[5]
Reponse -
Replace annexed wth "Mexico ceded" -> See Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo Pendright (talk) 05:01, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Done. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 13:08, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Supporting - Pendright (talk) 17:19, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Assessment/Fort_Phantom_Hill&oldid=1165529309"