Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/INTERFET logistics

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Article promoted by Parsecboy (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 13:20, 30 December 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

INTERFET logistics[edit]

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Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk)

INTERFET logistics (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Nick-D asked for this article a couple of years ago, but its taken me this long to get it done. The Australian intervention in East Timor in 1999-2000 is an interesting case of a multinational coalition not lead by a great power. The politics of the operation, the diplomacy involved in assembling the coalition, and of course the operations are all fascinating subjects, but my interest as always is in the logistics. The official history of the intervention in East Timor has yet to appear, and I'm not expecting a great deal on logistics, as the Vietnam volumes are very poor in this regard. (The US volume on logistics in Vietnam has also failed to appear.) So this article represents my best effort. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:39, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by PM[edit]

I just did the GAN, and raised a few things there which have been addressed. What remains is to identify what some of the other logistic inputs (or lack thereof) were. What about in terms of number of casualties (battle and non-battle), and the ammunition usage/wastage. Might the RAR book Duty First have something useful on battle casualties? Or articles in medical journals or Army publications on other casualties? Is there anything that can be said about salvage and construction materials? They are the only questions I have. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:59, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by AustralianRupert[edit]

Support: G'day, Hawkeye, thanks for this article. Hopefully this article will help correct the notion that "log just happens". I have a few minor comments/suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 09:04, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • in the Background suggest linking Australian commandos
  • there are a few overlinked terms: Dilli, Townsville, 3rd Brigade, Bill Clinton, 3rd/4th Cavalry Regiment, Balibo, primaquine
    checkY Unlinked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • which 2 RAR move by air and --> "moved"
    checkY Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • border between East Na d West Timor --> "East and West Timor"
    checkY Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • the APCS of B Squadron --> "APCs"?
    checkY Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • were in difficulty --> "were barely serviceable"?
    checkY Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • caption: "Australian troops come alongside USS Blue Ridge at anchor 2,700 metres (3,000 yd)" --> maybe use kms, rather than metres here?
    checkY Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • caption: "HMNZS Endeavour" --> "HMNZS Endeavour escorted by Te Mana"?
    checkY Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • equipment with a newly-purchased --> the hyphen isn't really necessary here
    checkY Retained. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    No worries, it's a minor point, but I'm working off the guidance here (about ly adverbs): [1] (which a copy editor once shared with me, probably after fixing many of them in my own work). AustralianRupert (talk) 23:35, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't normally use American style guide, but I have checked our own (MOS:HYPHEN) and it says: Avoid using a hyphen after a standard -ly adverb, so removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:50, 29 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • just to support four helicopters was hardly economical --> hardly seems a bit like editorialising. Suggest simply "not"
    checkY Changed to "was uneconomical" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, that works for me. AustralianRupert (talk) 23:35, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was fortunate that the situation --> suggest removing "It was fortunate that"
    checkY Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review! Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:29, 28 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5[edit]

Claim my seat here. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:54, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • carried 9,500 tonnes of cargo and transported No convert here?
    Added a conversion. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Portugal had established a settlement on Timor in 1561, and in East Timor in 1633 This is a little bit not clear. The Portuguese arrived in 1961 on the island itself but they arrived in the eastern part in 1633, right?
    No, the Portuguese probably reached Timor in 1511, and definitely in 1515. [2] Their first settlement in East Timor was in 1633.
  • Also, pipe the Netherlands (in the next sentence) and Portugal to the Kingdom of Portugal and the Dutch Republic.
    I don't see the benefit of that. They are considered to be the same countries, and the narrative quickly moves into the 19th and 20th centuries. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • proposed that East Timor become a United Nations (UN) trusteeship Unlink the UN because of common term.
    It is not on the MOS:OVERLINK list. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • It ineed is not on the list but the UN is an everyday term and I think everyone knows what the UN is. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 10:01, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hey Hawkeye Can you please reply to this one, because I want to finish it before Christmas. I mightn't have a lot of time for Wikipedia around Christmas. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:16, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Me neither. I have enough people trying to link United Kingdom. [3] Removing this link stands no chance. Changed link to United Nations Trusteeship, which I hope will satisfy your objection. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:15, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sounds great. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 11:02, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • on 28 November 1975 in an attempt to forestall this, but on 7 December 1975 Indonesian forces invaded East Timor Remove the second 1975 and why did Indonesia invade it?
    The United States saw Fretilin as communists. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    There's an article on the Indonesian invasion of East Timor. It has a small section on motivations. I pulled the source it used from the Menzies library, and the summary in the article leaves a lot to be desired. Nonetheless, I don't think a long digression is appropriate in this article. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:10, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Me neither, I was just asking because I don't believe most of our readers would know this one. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 11:02, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      About the Indonesian invasion of East Timor, the Indonesian decision to pull out, or the Australian decision to intervene? I had the latter two explained to me by John Howard in person. The intervention in East Timor was front page news in Australia at the time, but not elsewhere, I don't think. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:17, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 1999 Helms-Biden Act restricted the United States' No link of the Act?
    There's no article on it, so it would be a red link. The Trump administration repudiated the act in 2019. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Air Vice Marshal Robert Treloar, the Commander Australian Theatre The Air Vice-Marshal's article uses a hyphen why does this sentence does not use a hyphen in it?
    Australian English (and the RAAF) does not use the hyphen. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Major General is overlinked.
    Unlinked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Normally based at Elmendorf Air Force Base in Alaska Link Alaska.
    Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • one had to make an emergency landing.[56][55] Re-order the ref here.
    Re-ordered. Hawkeye7 (discuss)
  • personnel there, using their radios.[58][55] Same as above.
    Re-ordered. Hawkeye7 (discuss)
  • carried 9,500 tonnes of cargo and transported No convert?
    Added a conversion. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • bringing 642 soldiers and 2,000 tonnes of cargo Same as above.
    Added a conversion. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some 7,000 square metres of vehicles and equipment were moved directly from Townsville to Dili without loss. Another 3,000 square metres of vehicles and equipment Same as above?
    Added a conversion. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:38, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The rest will follow. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 19:59, 14 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • The plan therefore was to build up stockpiles in Darwin Is build up without hyphen Australian English?
    It's the correct vowel form. "Buildup" is a noun with a rather specific military meaning. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Bougainville.
    Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • This process took about five hours.[77][74 Re-order the refs.
    Re-ordered. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • replenishing HMS Success with 150 tonnes of aviation fuel Convert 150 tonnes.
    Added conversion Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • with a Sea King from 443 Maritime Helicopter Squadron.[77][61] Re-order the refs here.
    Re-ordered. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • successful than others in using them wisely.[101][72] Same as above.
    Re-ordered. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • performance of Treloar and Mueller.[101][72] Same as above.
    Re-ordered. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • FLSG forwarded an average of 176 tonnes of cargo Convert 176 tonnes.
    Added conversion Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • 250 mg of mefloquine was substituted. A terminal prophylaxis of 7.5 mg of primaquine I don't here or there are Imperial/US units for a convert of "mg"?
    Yes. The imperial unit is the grain (unit). A grain is about 65 mg. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • in 2001 and 2002 found that about 6.5% of soldiers suffered --> "in 2001 and 2002 found that about 6.5 per cent of soldiers suffered"
    Changed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • USA vs US
    USA is correct here.
  • volume of mail increased from 250 kg a day Convert 250 kg.
    Added conversion Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • mail increased to 37 tonnes per day Same as above.
    Added conversion Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • which donated over US$100 million Link dollar here.
    Linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • the wharf capacity to 70 tonnes (69 long tons; 77 short tons) This sentence uses long tons while the rest of the article don't use it?
    Just a default. US customary is to use short tins for shipment by road and rail, long tons by sea. So converted to short tons here. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:57, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 10:27, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Anything is addressed so there is no reason to not support this one. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 11:02, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Nick-D[edit]

I had high hopes for any article you chose to write on this topic, but this effort really knocked it out of the park (or hit it for six if you'd prefer!). I have the following comments:

  • "significant numbers of civilian storemen" - can a non-gendered term be used here? (presumably at least some were women?)
    Deleted "storemen". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:10, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "10th Force Support Battalion (IFET)" - what is IFET an acronym for?
    Interim Force East Timor. Changed to "INTERFET". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:10, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "To compensate for the delay in bringing Kanimbla and Manoora into service" - this appears before the sentence where the ships are linked and the problem with them explained
    Shifted it around. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:10, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The first priority was water" - I recall reading (but can't remember where, sorry) that the lack of deployable water purification facilities was a real dilemma during the early days of INTERFET as a surprisingly large proportion of airlift capacity was tied up in flying water in.
    I'll have another look though the sources. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:10, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and two McDonnell Douglas F/A-18 Hornets were kept on standby in case air defence or close air support missions were required." - as a suggestion ahead of FAC, and at the risk of scope creep, a little bit more could be said about the forces held on standby in northern Australia. These included a detachment of F-111s which were kept bombed up (with concrete bombs, from memory) at RAAF Base Tindal and a number of Leopard tanks which were held at high readiness to move.
    Will do. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:10, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article says both that "The heliport was found abandoned, but not burnt or seriously damaged" and "The heliport was in poor condition, and was located on low ground susceptible to flooding" which seems contradictory.
    Deleted "in poor condition". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:10, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The link to ATCO doesn't seem right given it's to an article on a Canadian company.
    That's the right company. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:10, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "produced a report that was highly critical of the performance of Treloar and Mueller" - do the sources note any particular deficiencies?
    No, they don't. I will have another look. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:10, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nick-D (talk) 07:16, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support My A-class level comments are now addressed. This article really is excellent work. Nick-D (talk) 09:38, 8 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass[edit]

  • "File:C-130 Darwin 021205-O-9999G-012.jpg": the original source is dead and should be removed.
    checkY Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "File:Australian Blackhawk helicopters Dili 2000.jpg": the source is dead.
    checkY Substituted archive URL. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "File:RAAF Dili 2000.jpg": the source is dead.
    checkY Substituted archive URL. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "File:HMAS Jervis Bay.jpg": the source is dead.
    checkY Substituted archive URL. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "File:INTERFET troops landing craft.jpg": the source is dead.
    checkY Substituted archive URL. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "File:INTERFET-UNTAET handover.jpg": the source is dead.
    ☒N No archive available. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Then why not source it from elsewhere? (eg)
    Or better still from here? There is no point. All it does is point back to the same Flickr photostream. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:05, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I note in passing that no alt text has been provided.
  • "Map of East Timor" and "Dili area" sandwich at several size preferences and on several devices. Suggest dropping the latter one paragraph.
    checkY Moved one paragraph down. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "HMNZS Endeavour escorted by HMNZS Te Mana" Suggest that which is which be indicated in the caption.
    checkY Added to caption. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:58, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Overall a fine mix of well placed and captioned images. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:57, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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