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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Peacemaker67 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 19:16, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Les Holden[edit]

Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk)


Following on from Elwyn Roy King and Roy Phillipps, I present another Australian fighter ace of World War I whose article has been GA for some years before I expanded it with additional sources for a shot at ACR. Although his aforementioned fellows were the more successful aces, Holden had the most eventful post-war career in civil aviation. Like them, however, he died too early, in this case on a routine passenger flight after having survived numerous brushes with death during the war, not to mention the wilds of New Guinea in the earliest days of its air transport industry. Thanks in advance for all comments! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:55, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)

  • "the pair was": "the pair were"?
    • Heh, if this was BritEng I'm sure it would be "pair were"; the British like to treat collective nouns as plural, e.g. "the government were" and "the band were", etc, but in AusEng I think we can (or should) say "the government was" and "the band was", so I'd expect to say "the pair was" too unless I've missed something.
      • No clue about AusEng. In AmEng, noun phrases like "a number of people", "the pair of boys" and "a couple of hoodlums" (along with "a number", "the pair" and "a couple", if they mean the same thing) are universally plural, just like "two people" is plural. But: "The pair of shoes was on sale", because it's seen as one sale, a single item (usually singular in print, but not always). - Dank (push to talk) 01:10, 20 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he and his wingman engaged a German two-seater in the vicinity of Saint-Quentin just after noon on 2 October, but the latter managed to escape": How about this? "Just after noon on 2 October in the vicinity of Saint-Quentin, he and his wingman engaged a German two-seater that managed to escape".
    • No problem with that, will alter.
  • "led by the former commanding officer of No. 2 Squadron, Major (now Lieutenant Colonel) Watt": If he was a lt. colonel at the time, then it doesn't sound right to me to give him a title of "Major".
    • Yeah, I was trying to convey that when he was CO on 2Sqn he was a major, not a Lieutenant Colonel. Perhaps if I just say "led by Lieutenant Colonel Watt, the former commanding officer of No. 2 Squadron" then it still works?
  • I copyedited the article per my standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 19:55, 19 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support: G'day, as always, quality work, Ian. Not much for me to complain about really. I just have a couple of suggestions:

  • "joining the 4th Light Horse Brigade" --> minor nitpick, but a soldier doesn't really "join" a unit, they are either "posted to" or "assigned to" (e.g. one joins a corps, but is posted to a unit). In this case, I believe Holden was assigned to the 4 LH Bde's headquarters element;
    • Mea culpa, I should know that...!
  • "Serving as a driver first in the Middle East and then in France", I'd suggest moving the link/mention of the Western Front to here;
    • Okay.
  • did he take part in any notable battles in the Middle East or France while serving in the light horse?
    • My guess is that I didn't find explicit mention of him doing so in the sources, but if I can usefully add something of the brigade's achievements during his posting then I'd be happy to do so.
  • "he and his wingman engaged a German two-seater that managed to escape" --> "he and his wingman unsuccessfully engaged a German two-seater that managed to escape"?
    • Heh, this seems to be the most problematic sentence in the article (see above)... ;-) I think I'd be happy to say "unsuccessfully engaged a German two-seater." or simply leave it as is, but I feel that "unsuccessfully" and "managed to escape" together might be overdoing it, WDYT?
      • I'd go with "unsuccessfully engaged a German two-seater." Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 13:56, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • It's true that a lot of copyeditors prefer one-word adverbs (unsuccessfully) to four-word clauses, if the meaning is the same. I try to pick my battles. So I can successfully escape. :) - Dank (push to talk) 11:15, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Promoted to captain in March 1918, Holden was posted to England in May as a flying instructor with No. 6 (Training) Squadron at Minchinhampton.[1][15] Royal Air Force policy required pilots to be rotated to home establishment for rest and instructional duties after nine to twelve months in combat". I'd suggest switching these two sentences, as I think it would improve the narrative flow
    • Sounds fair.
  • "were lost in their aircraft the Kookaburra" --> suggest adding a comma before "the Kookaburra". Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 10:24, 25 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentsSupport
    • No dab links [1] (no action req'd).
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    • Images all seem to be PD / free and seem to have the req'd information (no action req'd)
    • Captions look fine (no action req'd)
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    • " from altitudes as low as twenty or thirty feet..." I wonder if this should also be converted to metres? (suggestion only)
    • "In May 1921, he served with Malley and other veteran pilots as a pall-bearer at Colonel Watt's funeral...", probably should just be Watt, removing rank here as you have previously referred to him as Colonel Watt per WP:SURNAME.
    • There is an inconsistency between his date of birth in the article ("Holden was born on 3 March 1895"), and the lead and the infobox (both of which say 6 March 1895). Pls confirm which is correct.
    • Excellent otherwise. Anotherclown (talk) 07:46, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Actioned all those, tks for reviewing and especially for spotting the inconsistent birthdates! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:00, 3 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I made a few edits, but the article is easily up to scratch. Great work, Ian. Just one question—what does arguably mean in arguably the first flight from Sydney to New Guinea? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:09, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Arguably" wasn't a good word; the source said "probably" so I've changed it now to "possibly". The "tragic adjunct" wording did reflect the source but I don't have a big prob with losing it, would likely have caused a problem if it goes to FAC anyway. Tks for review/support! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:15, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


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