Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Operation Southeast Croatia

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Promoted -- Ian Rose (talk) 14:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Southeast Croatia[edit]

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (send... over)


I am nominating this article for A-Class review because it passed GAN in December last year and has been improved since. It covers a German-Ustasha offensive in the winter if 1941–42 in eastern Bosnia that forced the Partisans out of the German occupied areas into those areas occupied by the Italians, and sounded the death-knell for Partisan-Chetnik cooperation. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 02:49, 12 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments: G'day, I've only had a quick look at this stage. I plan to come back later when this coming weekend, but until then I have the following comments (I also made a couple of minor tweaks to the article):

  • is it possible to add translations for the title of the work by Popovic in the References section? I believe that the cite book template has a "trans_title=" parameter that can display this;
  • in the References, locations that are not widely known, such as "Abingdon" probably should have a state/county location as well. New York is fine by itself, though, based on guidance at FAC. AustralianRupert (talk) 13:10, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks, looks good. I made a few more tweaks. Continuing my review below... AustralianRupert (talk) 02:23, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having read through the article in full, I wonder if the name shouldn't be changed to "Operations Southeast Croatia and Ozen". Thoughts?
  • I'm relaxed about that, Southeast Croatia was the larger of the two, Ozren was essentially intended as a mopping-up op, which is why it is titled the way it is.
  • in the infobox, "seven Croatian Home Guard battalions" --> "7 Croatian Home Guard battalions" and "nine Croatian Home Guard artillery batteries" --> "9 Croatian Home Guard artillery batteries". I believe that even numerals below ten are presented using numbers in the infobox;
  • Good point, done.
  • Are there any images of troops in action during these operations, or commanders of the forces involved, that could be added?
  • pics of troops on these ops are few and far between, I have added a pic of Bader (who was the overall commander and issued the objectives for the ops).
  • German casualties and losses are included in the infobox, but not in the body of the article. I think it would be a good idea to add a sentence on these to the prose;
  • Done.
  • is there any information on Partisan casualties that could be added?
  • Found something from a US Army Centre of Military History pub and added it.
  • I don't see the "30,000 – 35,000" or "20,000 – 30,000" figures (for German/Croatian) or the "2,000" (for Partisans) figures in the text. Could this be worked in (additionally, the 20, 000 - 30,000 and 2,000 figures don't appear to be referenced);
  • Done.
  • Johann Fortner is mentioned in the infobox but there doesn't appear to be a mention in the text as to what role he played;
  • Done, he was the commander of the 718th.
  • "However, the majority of Partisans were able to evade the cordon and escape." Is there any information that could be added about what they did to achieve this? Did they fight delaying actions, split into smaller groups to evade, etc.?
  • I think the take home message was the NDH troops weren't up to the job, but I'll confirm what the sources say, if anything.
  • Added more info.

AustralianRupert (talk) 02:23, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

couple more to addressAll done. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:05, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review, AR. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 09:03, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - Dank (push to talk)

  • "in the southeastern parts of the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) (modern-day Bosnia and Herzegovina)": This would usually mean that NDH was more or less where Bosnia and Herzegovina is today. This would work: in the southeastern parts of the Independent State of Croatia (NDH), in modern-day Bosnia and Herzegovina
  • "Several days after the conclusion of Operation Southeast Croatia, a follow-up operation known as Operation Ozren was launched. Operation Ozren was carried out between the Bosna and Spreča rivers.": Combine these.
  • "groups led by either communists or Serb–Chauvinist Chetniks.": This might mean that each group might be led by communists, Chetniks, or both; if each group tended to be led by one or the other, then slightly better would be: some groups led by communists and some led by Serb–Chauvinist Chetniks
  • "November–December": November and December
  • "Bader considered that": maybe: Bader believed that
  • "frontline": front line (frontline is the adjective)
  • " – ": no spaces unless there's a space in one or both of the elements on either side of the dash
  • "Igman": Isn't it a mountain plateau?
  • "machineguns": machine guns
  • "using seemingly impassable terrain": through seemingly impassable terrain
  • "The Germans caused considerable losses to the Partisans": The Germans inflicted considerable losses on the Partisans
  • Support on prose per new standard disclaimer. - Dank (push to talk) 03:28, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the review, Dan. It was always referred to as "Mount Igman" when I was there, but strictly-speaking it is a mountain plateau. All addressed [1]. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 06:53, 5 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

  • Not a dealbreaker here, but I'm wondering if (NDH) acronym needs expansion on the first instance of its use to (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska – NDH), possibly using {{lang-hr}} template since the acronym is not self-explanatory because it is formed from Croatian instead of English.
  • In "The insurgents in the area of operations destroyed villages to deny supplies and shelter to the Germans who were operating in mountainous terrain with snow up to 1 metre" the figure 1 should be spelled out per WP:ORDINAL. Since the figure is currently produced by a {{convert}} template, this can be achieved using {{convert/spell }} template instead. Note a space between "spell" and the first parameter pipe though.
  • More out of curiosity than anything else: In "...infiltrating through the cordon through seemingly impassable terrain." is it meant to say that the seemingly impassable terrain was cordoned off or left unguarded?
  • In troop strength indicators in the infobox (the first one), what does addition of "in total" mean?
  • I'm not a native speaker of English, so I might be completely wrong here, but the caption of the infobox image "Mount Igman where the 1st Proletarian Brigade crossed" leads me to ask "crossed what?"

Granted, at lest three of the above issues are subjective impressions and a case of nitpicking, but the previous reviews have apparently been sufficiently thorough to leave little to mend.--Tomobe03 (talk) 21:22, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • all addressed, except for the terrain one, the source doesn't say, I think the implication is that both the Germans and Croatians didn't have those areas properly cordoned. Thanks for the convert template tip, hadn't used that one before. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 01:49, 20 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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