Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Sayfo

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

No consensus to promote at this time - Hog Farm (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 16:20, 20 May 2022 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Sayfo[edit]

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Nominator(s): Buidhe (talk)

Sayfo (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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This article is about the lesser-known sibling of the Armenian genocide. I am thankful for an extensive GAN and hope to get it to FAC, but it may need further polishing to make its subject matter understandable to a broad audience. (t · c) buidhe 23:28, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

{{@Milhist}} Thanks everyone for their input. I am withdrawing this to nominate at FAC. (t · c) buidhe 15:47, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've closed this. Hog Farm Talk 15:54, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Ichthyovenator

  • The name debate is a bit bothersome when writing articles and while Assyrian seems to be most common, I presume people who identify as Syriacs, Chaldeans or Arameans do not call this the Assyrian genocide. Is it worthwile to note this or is "Assyrian genocide" far more predominant than any alternative name (since that and Sayfo are the only given in the lead)? Ichthyovenator (talk) 11:20, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is a good point, but of the possible variations "Assyrian genocide" is the only name in common use: 448 results on Google scholar compared to 16 for "Chaldean genocide", 20 for "Syriac genocide", 10 for "Aramean genocide". In the article, I try to use sectarian identifications or failing that "Assyrian" for East Syriac and "Syriac" for West Syriac populations, following the use in reliable sources. (Most Chaldeans lived outside the areas affected by the genocide.) (t · c) buidhe 11:42, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, makes sense. Ichthyovenator (talk) 12:24, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a reason for not having an infobox (as in Armenian genocide, The Holocaust, Holodomor, Greek genocide etc.)? Ichthyovenator (talk) 14:05, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think it would benefit the article. Most possible parameters are too complex, vague, or unknown to summarize easily in infobox format. (t · c) buidhe 15:28, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article mentions that the 250,000 and 275,000 figures seem to be exaggerations and that they are impossible to verify. Are there any lower scholarly estimates for a total death toll? I notice for instance that the article on the Armenian genocide includes a death toll of "600,000–1.5 million" which is quite a wide range. Ichthyovenator (talk) 14:05, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    There are no such estimates to my knowledge. (t · c) buidhe 15:31, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since the Ottoman Empire was organized by religion, Ottoman officials referred to populations by their religious affiliation rather than ethnicity when I wrote most of what's currently at History of the Assyrians I incorporated that the Armenians were organized into the single Armenian millet despite some interreligious differences per Donabed (2019), p. 118; not sure if that's accurate but either that should be mentioned here or what I wrote needs to be changed.
    • I believe both these things are true. Originally, the Armenian millet included all Armenian churches as well as the Syriac Orthodox, Chaldean Catholic Church, and Church of the East (per Gaunt and Suny), and several others. In the nineteenth century some of these churches obtained their own millet. I think I have read somewhere that Assyrians/Syriacs were sometimes known as Ermeni because of their association with the millet, which may explain why some were targeted for being "Armenians" in 1915.
Ah I see; yes, makes sense. Ichthyovenator (talk) 10:29, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • distinguish themselves from the official religion of the Byzantine Empire since this was in 410 the Western Roman Empire was still around and presumably both halves of the empire followed the same form of Christianity - I would change this to Roman Empire but Byzantine is not technically incorrect. Ichthyovenator (talk) 17:03, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done
  • I was unfamiliar with the term "gendarmerie" - suggest linking and/or explaining it in the text
    • Done
  • for a written promise that the Assyrians would not side with Russia or permit Nestorian tribes to take up arms against the Ottoman government This is the only spot in the article where "Nestorian" is used as a descriptor for the people/religion; maybe it should be replaced since Nestorianism states that In modern religious studies, this label has been criticized as improper and misleading.
    • Rephrased
  • contained 104 pages of its 684 pages about the fate of Assyrians: would not devoted 104 out of its 684 pages... be the more usual phrasing? Could be wrong on this.
    • Done
  • resolutions passed by the parliaments of Sweden (in 2010); ← replace this semicolon with a comma.
  • In 2001, the National Security Council (Turkish intelligence agency) commissioned a report on the activities of the Assyrian diaspora. - this is interesting but I don't understand its relevance to the "denial and justification" section.
  • I've noticed that both "Sayfo" and "Assyrian genocide" are used interchangeably in the text (and not only in quotes) - is there a reason for this (otherwise one of them should probably be used consistently). Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:43, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed the two points above and replaced almost all uses of "Assyrian genocide" with Sayfo to be consistent. I wonder if you would take a look at an IP's comments at Talk:Sayfo#Two_different_meanings_for_"Assyrian"? I am not entirely sure how to resolve this or the best way to refer to victims of the genocide collectively. Thanks so much for your comments! (t · c) buidhe 16:58, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: No problem! It was a fascinating (albeit horrific) read. When it comes to a collective name I really don't know; there is really no possible option that will satisfy everyone. At History of the Assyrians and Assyrian continuity I used both terms more or less interchangeably. The IP is correct that "Syriac Christian" plays into religion more than ethnicity but I have seen it used as a name for the (ethnic) group as well, such as here. Its use has also been criticized because it's a shorthand for "Syriac-speaking Christians and not all Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriacs/Arameans speak Syriac. Among "Assyrian", "Syriac", "Aramean" and "Chaldean", "Assyrian" is the most prevalent one as a designation for the entire group, such as here, but I think you're right in using the other names in cases where church affiliation is known. Ichthyovenator (talk) 01:03, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

With the comments above addressed and after having reviewed the A-class criteria I think this definitely fulfills them, so supporting. Though it's worth looking into, I don't think the somewhat inconsistent use of names holds this back - they are inconsistent in WP:RS as well. Ichthyovenator (talk) 13:45, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

HF[edit]

Will review at some point over the next couple days. Hog Farm Talk 19:05, 4 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Recommend in-text attribution for the lengthy quote at the beginning of the worsening conditions section
    • Done
  • "The Assyrians of Hakkari and Persia resisted conscription into the Ottoman army" - so were the Ottomans trying to conscript Assyrians from the neighboring country of Persia into their armies?
    • That's the implication in the cited source, which is not unreasonable since the Ottomans were recruiting beyond their borders, but I can't verify it in other sources so I took it out.

More to come later. Hog Farm Talk 16:33, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • "As a result, Haydar Bey, the vali of Mosul" - Gloss vali, it's evidently some rank of official but not entirely clear of what magnitude
    • Fixed by using "governor"

Should be studying for the CPA exam, but I don't really want to do that right now, so I'll finish off this review and listen to some red dirt country.

  • "In late September and October 1914 the attacks were on a large scale and once the attackers came close to Urmia; many Assyrian villages were attacked" - I'm not sure this is quite grammatical - I suspect either the semicolon should be a comma, or the "and" after "scale" should be removed
    • Rephrased
  • "The Persian government refused to allow the return of Assyrians who had fled as requested by the United Kingdom" - not 100% clear - did the UK request that the Assyrians would return to Persia, or was the UK requests Persia to refuse to allow the return?
    • Clarify, the former
  • Provide language of work for Hellot
    • Done
  • Sources look fine for reliability
  • Did not assess image licensing, as there's several images I don't feel competent to try to sort out the licensing on

Hog Farm Talk 17:24, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks so much for your review! Good luck on the exam :) (t · c) buidhe 21:37, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support with the caveat I don't feel qualified to comment on the nomenclature used for the topic. Hog Farm Talk 22:18, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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