Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Peer review/Action of 9 November 1822

Action of 9 November 1822

In one of the bloodiest actions of America's campaign against piracy in the 1820's, the boats of the USS Alligator attack a squadron of pirate vessels who manage to fight off the American assault and escape. This article just passed GA review and im wondering if there are any improvements that i should make before submitting it for A-class review.XavierGreen (talk) 23:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

YellowMonkey

• "Operations Against West Indian Pirates" Is that an official name/roper noun?
  • Yes thats the name used by the United States military for their campaign against pirates in the region at the time.XavierGreen (talk) 17:29, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
• Do we know what country the pirates were from. They aren't identified at all. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:16, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately none of the reliable sources state the nationality of the pirates, though they were most likely cuban or at the very least spanish in common. However since i cannot find a source for their nationality, inclusion of it would be OR, no?XavierGreen (talk) 17:29, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

JonCatalán

Some general commentary,

• "Fifteen leagues from Matanzas, Cuba" — I'm not sure what convention for this has been in past articles on similar topics, but it seems to me that it would make sense to convert "fifteen leagues" to its respective length in a modern unit of measurement. It is especially pertinent here, I think, because the "league" is defunct.
• "The band of pirates was rather large, consisting of around 125 men and three armed schooners." — Maybe the word "rather" should be replaced by "relatively"? It seems to me as if "relatively" would be more accurate, in this case.
  • Fixed this.XavierGreen (talk) 00:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
• "These were the ship rigged vessel William Henry from New York, the brigs Iris and Sarah Morril from Boston, and one schooner each from Rochester and Salem." — Should that be two schooners? I don't know what "each" refers to. There were three piratical schooners, so it can't be one schooner per pirate ship. JonCatalán^(Talk) 00:44, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
  • The two schooners refered to here were merchant vessels being held captive by the pirate schooners, i have attempted to clarify this in the text further.XavierGreen (talk) 00:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
• You write that there were three pirate ships, but in the section titled 'action' you suggest that only Revenge was targeted? Why were the other two pirate schooners not engaged? If there is no reason available why, maybe there should be some clarification in the writing? Otherwise, it reads a bit incomplete.
  • Revenge was the first sighted and nearest to the Americans, i have tweaked the sentence to reflect that this was the first of three to be engaged.XavierGreen (talk) 00:09, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
• Regarding the above point, you do clarify this a bit later one: "With their commander mortally wounded and their crew taking heavy casualties, the American boats withdrew, thus allowing the second piratical schooner as well as a third that had not been engaged, to escape." — Perhaps you could clarify earlier in the text.

JonCatalán^(Talk) 00:44, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Magicpiano

Interesting read. I would add mention of the current status of the Alligator wreck site (especially since you have a modern photo of the area; is there any scholarship on it, or documents of finds brought up from it? possible source Magic♪piano 17:36, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Added some more information regarding this from the source you mentioned, virtually everything of use was salvaged from the ship before she was burnt.XavierGreen (talk) 01:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Kirk

• Its hard to follow the pirate ships without some kind of unique names for the unnamed ones - I would try to find a source for the names of the other two armed pirate ships, or instead of ordinal numbers (first schooner, second schooner) name them something (Schooner P1, Schooner P2? Medium and small?) and explain somewhere in the article why they have no names. The reference for this information is from 1853; its possible a more modern or reliable source has that information, but DANFS doesn't so I suspect this will not be easy to find. Its always hard to find reliable secondary sources which explain why something is unknown. You might need to go to a big library to find a few reliable print sources about this particular conflict instead of the google books you've relied on so far prior to your A review.
  • The modern sources in this situation are not reliable, they are all based off of the sources i use in the article and oftentimes add in material that is unsourced. Many modern sources mentioning this engagement are non-academic works and tell very little about the actual details of the engagement. The only source in which i found a name of one of the other pirate vessels involved is a primary source, but the author himself was accused of being a liar in a differant matter and as i cannot find the ship's name in offical government accounts or any secondary source i have excluded it. There is a book by Gardiner from the 1920's which may be of use, but it is extremely rare, out of print, not on google books, and not in any library near me. I will keep searching for more modern material.XavierGreen (talk) 23:58, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
• Regarding Jon's league comment, you could use Lat/Long coordinates to give an approximate location since DANFS (which should be referenced in this article) says it was 45 miles (~15 leagues) east of Matanzas, which really isn't close enough to Matanzas to warrant mentioning it. Kirk (talk) 13:25, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Fifelfoo

• 19th century action in small boats? Exciting! Ten miles of rowing...
• sweeps are a term of art in naval matters unfamiliar to the lay person. Have you considered wikilinking?
  • unfortunately no article exists to link it to.XavierGreen (talk) 23:43, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
• Were the prizes uncrewed by Pirates? Is this common piratical practice, or was it unusual?
  • None of the sources state that they were occupied when captured, and no pirates were captured so i would assume that they were either unoccupied or abandoned early in the action. Alas as no source states this it would be OR to include it.XavierGreen (talk) 23:43, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
• Is the formal name of the Department of the Navy and its NHH Command and UA Department in ALL CAPS? If not, use title case. "USS Alligator". Underwater Archaeology. DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY -- NAVAL HISTORY & HERITAGE COMMAND UNDERWATER ARCHAEOLOGY DEPARTMENT. 24 March 2009. http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-2.htm. Retrieved 27 September 2010.
  • Fixed.XavierGreen (talk) 23:43, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
• Possible book in series, is so cite the series: Emmons, George Foster (1853). Fifelfoo (talk) 03:08, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
  • I do not believe Emmons turned this into a series.XavierGreen (talk) 23:43, 8 October 2010 (UTC)