Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 9

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British English / American English

We (jguk and I) talked about this on IRC, and we agreed that the most fair way to deal with the English spelling/punctuation differences:

Topics not relating to either should be "first-come-first-used"—that is, the original style of the first major contributor should be kept. Neutralitytalk 06:22, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

Um...hasn't this been established policy for a very long time? -- Cyrius|✎ 06:28, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I thought so, but according to the MoS, it's not. I'm trying to codify this policy as a matter of common sense and decorum. Neutralitytalk 06:30, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
How do you define "topics"? Does something like Family Guy count as an American topic because it was created in America? Is Edward Elgar a British topic because he was born and lived in England? – flamurai (t) 06:28, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
Yes and yes. Common sense, really. Neutralitytalk 06:30, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
Okay. I definitely thought this was already in the MOS, but I can't seem to find it now, either. Because of that, I thought maybe you were loosening the policy with a stricter definition of "topics". – flamurai (t) 06:34, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
I knew it was written down somewhere: Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ#Should I use American English or British English?. -- Cyrius|✎ 06:38, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
But what it says isn't accurate, Cyrius. It says: "The official policy is to use British (AKA "Commonwealth") spelling when writing about British (or Commonwealth) topics, and American for American topics." Where does it say that is official policy? SlimVirgin 06:41, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
It's also been in the MoS. I went to the bottom of the first page of history, being too lazy to hit "Next", and found the December 7, 2004 version with this text:
Articles which focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally aim to conform to the spelling of that country (for instance the British "Labour Party"). A reference to "the American labour movement" (with a U) or to "Anglicization" (with a Z) may be jarring. However, a reference to "the American labour movement" would be okay on New Labour.
By the way, in your proposed policy, I assume the second bulleted point was cut-and-pasted and you forgot to change "British" to "American". JamesMLane 06:47, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I've always taken "American for American topics" in the MoS as meaning "United States topics", not those "topics relating to the entire continent(s) from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego". I oppose most strenuously any Monroe-doctrine diktat whereby we Latin Americans would be denied the right (enjoyed by the Europeans and Asians, it would appear -- no one seems to be proposing UK English for the whole of Europe) to choose between 'color' and 'colour' or to write about a 'Guatemalan government programme'. This is an unacceptable proposal. "The Americas" should read "the United States", which would be unobjectionable. –Hajor 14:13, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I agree with you about what the policy's always meant. That's why I thought maybe Neutrality was proposing the Monroe Doctrine rule (good name for it). That might make sense if applied globally, i.e., that all articles on European topics should indeed use British English. My preference, though, is to keep it as you say -- that whoever starts an article can refer to a "Guatemala government program" or "programme", and the same with the French government. JamesMLane 19:05, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Yes, Ben's misunderstood "American" here. "American" (without further qualification) means "of or pertaining to the United States of America, or a citizen of the United States of America". "American English" clearly does not include Canadian English, Belizean English, Guyanese English, Falkland Island English, etc. etc.
FYI, the genesis of the recent discussions is a revert war on History of Russia regarding punctuation. One side is trying to enforce the Manual of Style as it currently stands, the other side is trying to enforce standard American style punctuation, jguk 19:21, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Naughty, naughty on History of Russia: the MoS seems pretty clear on that point. As for the possibility of confusion regarding the "AE for American topics" note on Wikipedia:Contributing FAQ, perhaps we should tweak the wording and say "U.S. topics", "topics relating to the United States"? –Hajor 21:09, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

This gets difficult when there's any ambiguity, which there often will be. For example, I was recently asked to change an article I'd written on philosopher Bernard Williams. I wrote in AE, and was asked to change it to BE, because he was born in the UK. However, though he was born and worked for many years in the UK, he also worked for many years (though not as many) in the U.S., sold more of his books in the U.S., and they were written in AE, and so on. He also had no sense of himself as tied to any one nationality, so to make a switch to BE felt a little false. I'm in the process of writing about Ernest Gellner, who spent his entire academic career in the UK apart from a couple of years before he died, but who was born in Paris and regarded himself as Czech because his family was. So would that have to be written in BE? I think I prefer the first major contributer policy. By and large, that will amount to the same policy that you've proposed because subjects that are indisputably and only British are likely to be written by Brits. Also, your policy is going to mean people will have to investigate the style used in any given country before they can write a subject related to it. SlimVirgin 06:41, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

I think Ben (Neutrality) and I were discussing things in a slightly wider context. IMO, we should accept any form of standard English in an article as long as it is used consistently throughout. No exceptions at all (not for punctuation, nor for "U.S." or "US" being used depending on what form of standard English is used - nor any other exceptions).
However, where an article relates to a topic that is specific to one part of the English-speaking world, the standard form of English used in that part of the world would usually be preferred.
I think the difficulties highlighted by SlimVirgin are likely to be restricted to a small number of articles. Far fewer than what we currently have disputes on. Plus, when writing it's easier to write in a style of English you are familiar with, rather than remember the exceptions to the rules in the MOS, jguk 06:52, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Re your last point: Not necessarily. It just gives someone the right to come along and change it later. It's similar to how we say to new writers not to worry about style, formatting, etc. since someone will come along and fix it. That's the beauty of the wiki. – flamurai (t) 06:53, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
I agree with you on everything but the example of "U.S." vs. "US." I think we should used the preferred manner of abbreviation—after all, there is no compelling reason to remove the periods (full stops). See JamesMLane's comments above. Neutralitytalk 06:59, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
I prefer "no exceptions". After all, why in a BE article where every other two letter abbreviation omits stops would you wish to suddenly use an abbreviation with stops? Besides, no exceptions leaves only one future debating point: SV's point as to how we decide that an article is on a subject that is particularly associated with one part of the English-speaking world, jguk 07:07, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think I'm going to have to declare everyone officially blind. The page long "Usage and spelling" section of the MoS is all about AE vs BE. -- Cyrius|✎ 06:55, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ben and I started discussing this as there are exceptions to the rule that any standard form of English is acceptable. Ben has his bugbears, I have mine. I don't see why we don't just get rid of the exceptions, it would make things a lot less argumentative all round (and I don't mean just between Ben and me), jguk 07:07, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Hey, Cyrius, not everyone is blind. I quoted the key part of the relevant passage! When I first saw this entry, I thought perhaps the issue being raised concerned non-English-speaking countries. My understanding is that English speakers in the Western Hemisphere plus Japan and Liberia are influenced by American sources and use American English, while all others are more likely to use Commonwealth English. On that theory, if someone creates an article about a notable person in the history of Bolivia or Botswana, it could be argued that the first-come-first-served rule applies, or it could be argued that the article should conform to the style of English that's more prevalent in the subject's country. The rule as Neutrality proposed it, assuming that the second line is supposed to refer to "American English", seems to take the former position for the Eastern Hemisphere and the latter position for the Western, which seems wrong. JamesMLane 07:28, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I still don't understand what we're all discussing here. Neutrality opened the discussion with a proposal which is, as far as I can tell, what the MoS already says. -- Cyrius|✎ 13:25, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
LOL There's always chaos when this subject's discussed.  ;-) SlimVirgin 19:30, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

I thought there were certain things that had to be used, like U.S. instead of US, in order for certains links to work, is that right? Also, if AE abbreviates it that way, shouldn't that be respected? I think all these issues have been discussed on previous MoS talk pages. SlimVirgin 07:12, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)

On your first sentence, as far as I am aware it is not right - certainly in my time on WP no-one's been able to explain the point. On your second sentence, AmE terminology and usage should, IMO, be fully respected in articles written in AmE (though I would ask that people don't go so overboard with Americanisms so that the article is unintelligible to others - and that where terms are confusing to those unfamiliar with AmE that they are explained). Similiarly, BE terminology and usage should be fully respected in articles written in BE (similarly, subject to not going overboard and making explanations where relevant), similarly with Indian English, New Zealand English, Botswanan English, etc. jguk 09:15, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I don't know whether I'm right about the first point. I just keep seeing people make that point, but I'm not even sure I understand it. I agree with your second point. My understanding of the MoS is that, in an article about a topic that is specific to Britain e.g. British Labour Party, BE should be used, and the same with other countries. That's fair enough (though September 11, 2001 attacks was in British English at one point, now mostly changed, though it's retained al-Qaida, which I believe is the British transliteration). But I don't think the world should be split up by counting Commonwealth countries as falling under BE. Canada and Australia don't, for example. And I also think we should retain a narrow definition of "topic specific to," otherwise just because someone was born in Britain or lived there a long time will end up meaning they must be written about in BE. So I think we should retain the first major contributer policy as the guiding principle. What we should aim for is not to be provincial, and not to assume there are only two types of English, AE and BE. There are dozens of countries where English is a first or second language, and we should let people use whichever style they want to so long as (a) there are no inconsistencies within the article, and (b) as you say, jguk, the English should be comprehensible to all English speakers, so we shouldn't ever use Americanisms unless they're widely understood or we explain them; same with Britishisms and so on. SlimVirgin 19:30, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
I agree with Cyrius: Neutrality's proposal is already in the style guide. Maurreen 02:23, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
At the risk of repeating myself, I'll say again what I already said above: Neutrality's proposal says "American English for topics on the Americas". Where does that appear in the style guide? –Hajor 02:40, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

OK, the style guide doesn't say exactly what Neutrality said. About style for topics on the Americas, I don't feel strongly either way. My point was that the proposal is essentially the same as is now in the style guide, so the proposed wording would have little or no practical effect. Maurreen 14:09, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi, Maurreen. Actually, if you take a closer look, Neutrality's proposal addresses both spelling and punctuation. What the MoS says is, "Articles that focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally conform to the spelling of that country." The guideline for punctuation (specifically, preferring ". over ." -- having seen History of Russia, I presume that's the issue in question) is separate and non-region-specific (at one point it spoke of "splitting the difference" between U.S. and UK usage, but I can't see that phrase there any more, which is a shame). As I read it, the proposal at the top (even ignoring the Americas/USA issue) does imply a fundamental and far-reaching change to what's already in the Style Guide and to how we've traditionally done things round here. –Hajor 15:24, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Reading this discussion reminds me of looking a Microsoft word processor. As I understand it from reading other discussions on this page, there are some words used in Canada which are derived from American spelling and many from the old standard. In the rest of the commonwealth how significant are the differences? I saw one the other day of South Africa "Spioenkop" and "Spion Kop" but that is very much the exception to the rule. It seems to me that thanks to TV the Internet etc commonwealth English is no longer diverging but converging. Aside from some words from arising under American influence, it is next to impossible to tell from which country a new word comes from when it enters the language because the spelling in all the rest is so similar. Written grammar in all the commonwealth countries seems to me to be so similar, that differences which may be the result of specific national education systems, are also within the acceptable standards of all countries.
We all know that there are hundreds of accents and dialects in spoken English but are there more than two dialects of formal English? Irish/Hiberno English page says "The standard spelling and grammar are the same as British English". It goes on to describe differences in spoken English, which would be repeated with similar levels of divergence in any English speaking area. A better short hand label than "Commonwealth English" is needed if Irish and British English are to be included in these pages as one formal written language standard, but that does not get away from the fact then any diffrences between them is a case of style (with both countries knowing where the style lies ;-o ) not substance. The Australian page says, it uses "truck instead of lorry, and freeway is the most common word for a high-speed road, though motorway and highway are acceptable." Truck and lorry are used interchangably in Britain and freeway is hardly enough to justify that they are distinct languages. There are differences in some other words for example in New Zealand the work pants is used instead of trousers but these differences are not enough in my opinion to say that they are different formal written languages. Will someone please explain to me what are the significant differences between formal written UK, NZ, Aus and SA English which, if only we can come up with a neutral name, stops these formal written Englishes (yuck) being grouped together and described as the same formal written English?
BTW I noted on the Theater page that "Theatre" is used in the industry in America, which is the same in Britain for "programme" which is used for radio, TV, and in a theatre, while "program" is used for a "computer program". As for the European Union all documents in English are in "Irish/British English" (Ireland was the only country which turned down the chance to have every document translated into its own language, so missing out on employing half the Gaeltacht region in Brussels as well paid translators) eg "European Central Bank". Philip Baird Shearer 15:51, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)


Style guide table of contents

The style guide table of contents has some weird extra spaces and I don't know why. Maurreen 02:07, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's the same with all table of contents. It's been doing this every once in a while for the past few days. Don't know what they're doing with the software. – flamurai (t) 12:35, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)

Simplified classical music titles

The main issue I wanted to solve with my lengthy classical music titles diatribe a while back is the incorrect italicization of titles of classical music pieces named by form (generic titles).

If no one objects, I would like to add the following item to the list after, "There are a few cases in which the title should be in neither italics nor quotation marks:"

  • Classical music pieces named by form (examples: Symphony No. 2, Violin Concerto)

I would also like to alter a sentence in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (titles), specifically changing:

Use italics for the title or name of books, court cases, movies, albums, TV series, magazines, ships, computer games, and major orchestral works.

to

Use italics for the title or name of books, court cases, movies, albums, TV series, magazines, ships, computer games, and given titles of classical music pieces (but not those named by form).

(or something similar... if anyone has a better way to phrase it without the parenthetical).

Any objections? Affirmations?

– flamurai (t) 20:36, Feb 13, 2005 (UTC)

A couple small tweaks: I'd like to suggest putting the list in alphabetical order and linking to more information on the distinction for classical music. Maurreen 20:53, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I started a draft music MoS at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (music). Now that I have a better grasp of WP policy, I greatly slackened the guidelines from my original proposal. I would like to get comments on this. – flamurai (t) 10:39, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

EU

I removed that when writing about the EU, we should use BE, as the EU is not a "topic specific to a particular country." That looks like an attempt to impose BE on a bunch of countries where English is not the first language and where spellings of English words vary. Please let's not impose too much rigidity on editors regarding what type of English they have to use. The main thing is that it should be consistent within articles. SlimVirgin 03:53, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'll bite. Surely what the recently removed guideline meant was that UK/Irish conventions should be used when writing about the institutions of the EU, certainly not when writing about every person, place, or thing in the non-anglophone member states. Thus: an article about DG XVII -- yes, standard English spelling as expected by the EU mandarins (ie, -isation and honour); an article about an Estonian poet or an Portuguese fishing village -- absolutely no heavy-handed across-the-board rule setting, first major contributor rule applies (see my remarks on LatAm above). So maybe we could resintate that comment, specifying "the institutions of the EU"? –Hajor 04:20, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'd have no problem with that wording. So long as someone wanting to write about some general EU-related topic isn't restricted. I just noticed your -isation though; -ization is also acceptable as BE. SlimVirgin 05:26, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

FYI, British English says -ize is used mostly by the EU. But I don't mean by this that people ought to be forced to use that; just that they also shouldn't be forced to use -ise. The less rigidity the better. SlimVirgin 05:50, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
Correcting the above; I misread the article. It's the UN not the EU that uses -ize. SlimVirgin 05:53, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
UN English actually manages to strike a pretty happy balance, most of the time. (Maybe Wikipedia should adopt it as its standard? Lot less squabbling...) Re -ise & -ize both being acceptable in BE -- absolutely, except that BE has, for the past 20 yrs or so, been pushed headlong down the -ise road by computer spelling software that doesn't allow the alternative -ize forms. To the point now where ise/ize is used as one of the top shibboleths to distinguish between BE & AE (try mixing 'organization' and 'colour' in an article here, and they'll tell you you're being inconsistent) when actually, a generation ago, it was one of the areas where the two were converging. Thank you, Mr. Gates & friends. –Hajor 06:14, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. We've had our linguistic history rewritten by the evil Microsoft. I often slip -ize words into articles with BE though, as a little act of defiance, though I won't say where, in case others go on a hunt-and-destroy mission. ;-) SlimVirgin 06:20, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

Nevertheless, it's time to end the nonsense of BE English dictionaries only showing the "ize" forms, while the British govt., Irish govt. and EU institutions use the "ise" form (which is more common now in general BE usage).
As regards EU related topics, I would suggest that BE is most certainly used for articles on the EU itself. But I would also suggest BE is used for any European topics - as the official form of English in the European Union is that used by Britain and Ireland (where it is a/the first language). It would be quite grating to see European topics (from any nation therein) written in an American format.
zoney ♣ talk 11:08, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

People are not topics

Hi, SlimVirgin. Re your addition of "A person does not count as a "topic specific to" a country" -- I see where you're coming from, with your comments above about Williams and Gellner, but I think the general rule *should* be that U.S. writers and presidents get U.S. English and that UK authors and MPs get the UK flavour. There'll be cases where it's not so black-and-white -- Gellner, probably, though not Williams, I think -- and that's where "first major contributor" kicks in. Can we have a go at rewording that addition? –Hajor 04:04, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hi Hajor, I have no problem rewording it. I can see why you'd want someone who held office in a particular country to be written about in that country's dialect. An article about George Bush would look odd in British English. But then that's in part the office, not just the person, that's being written about, and the office is a "topic specific to a country." What I'd like to avoid is a territoriality about people as individuals. Just because someone is born in America shouldn't mean that a British editor is forced to write about that person in American English. If the British editor is the first to have thought of the article on that person, then s/he should be allowed to write in whatever style s/he chooses, in my view. I see the alternative as terribly provincial, which Wikipedia should be at pains to avoid. And it gets complicated, as I mentioned before with the example of Williams, who I'm pretty sure would have been astonished to learn he had to be written about in British English. Countries and languages don't "own" people. SlimVirgin 04:15, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

Jguk, Hajor and I were discussing how to reword the "people are not topics" issue. Could you join in this discussion instead of deleting it entirely? I'm certainly happy to see people who hold office, like your George Bush example, be written about in the style of the country they hold office in. I just want to avoid a general philosophy of people being "owned" by certain countries; and also how do we judge: is it place of birth, how long they've resided? I'd like to suggest sticking to the idea of holding or having held office; or being in some other way inextricably linked to a country e.g. Shakespeare linked to UK or Robert Frost to U.S. But if the word "inextricably" doesn't apply, then the first-major-contributer rule should determine style. SlimVirgin 07:28, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

I'm happy to participate in the discussion - I haven't time to go into details now as I need to leave for work in quarter of an hour. In broad terms, I would choose a form of standard English used in an English-speaking place to which that person would be considered domiciled (though I will need to explain this for those not clear on what "domicile" means). I should be grateful if you would keep the proposed revision out of the MOS until a revision has been agreed upon. Kind regards, jguk 07:42, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Jguk, you've reverted again, LOL. You make very radical changes when you want to, but revert anyone else who does the same. I'm not having a go at you, just smiling a little, and I won't revert the revert. I'm already sensing problems with determining where a person is domiciled. Are we going to have find out which country they pay their taxes to? And Bernard Williams: living in the U.S. but domiciled in the UK? Difficult. SlimVirgin 07:55, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure it will be easy to write a specific wording for the policy. I wonder if it might be best to have a subpage showing how the policy gets applied in practice. Anyway, I've started Wikipedia:Manual of Style (guidance) and noted how I think the current policy should be interpreted. Please let me know if you agree with me and add further examples, jguk 18:44, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I would think "inextricably linked to a country" would apply to most single-nationality persons written about in Wikipedia (as they would have to have some level of fame/recognition). I think it is perfectly fair that any "famous" American is written about in US English, and others are not (and written in whatever form is appropriate). I suggest that this is the only proper course of action for Wikipedia, if it is to remain locale-fair.
The issue of people who have links with several nations (or more particularly, the US and somewhere else), with no one obvious link taking precedence, is a red herring - it's a minor issue (the vast majority of personalities don't fall into this category) that can be dealt with based on other guidelines here.
zoney ♣ talk 19:03, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Well said. I concur completely. – flamurai (t) 20:11, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)
I like the subpage, jguk. The MoS consists mostly of standards, not rules, so it's a good idea to have a casebook like that to assist people in applying the standards. – flamurai (t) 20:14, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

U.N. style

Hajor, you mentioned the U.N. as a possible model. I'd like to learn more. Do you know of any U.N. style references, especially online? Maurreen 07:45, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sure. It's probably too close to the UK/EU to be a validly neutral mid-Atlantic option, though. Basically, preference goes to the first option listed in the Concise Oxford -- thus, judgement, adviser, labour, realizes and organizations and all (but analyses & dialyses); more frequent hyphenation than you'd normally see in AE; dd mmm yyyy; quote marks within punctuaction -- heck, it's BE with zees, ok? Haven't got a link to the UN style guide, but the ITU's is here (warning! link to MS Word doc file). –Hajor 15:20, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, I've added it to the Style guide article. Would be good for that article to link to a Canadian style guide also. Maurreen 06:51, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Disputed sentences

There's been no further discussion regarding the disputed sentences (in bold below). We should discuss whether to have them in or out (neither are in at present); and if in, how expressed. They're both in the usage and spelling section:

(1) Articles that focus on a topic specific to a particular English-speaking country should generally conform to the spelling of that country. Disputed sentence: Note however: A person does not count as a "topic specific to" a country.

(2) Article on European Union treaties, institutions and directives: British and Irish usage and spelling

My concern with (1) is that we shouldn't get into a situation where people are "owned" by certain countries that they have been born in or lived in. When dealing with people, the first-major-contributer rule should apply. An exception might be if the person is a current political office holder, but there's probably no need to spell that out, as the office would count as an institution belonging to that country e.g. George Bush qua president of the U.S. But I'd hate to see us have to write about e.g. Robert Burns in British English just because he happened to live in the UK, particularly as his writing is not in British English and he didn't regard himself as British. People of artistic and literary merit belong to the world, not to any specfic country and to conclude otherwise is to succumb to provincialism and nationalism. Would Benjamin Zephaniah have to be written about in British English, where he was raised, or in Jamaican English, where he was born? Do we have to count the number of years someone has lived or worked in a country? For these reasons, I would very much like to see a clear disclaimer that people may be written about in any style. What do others think?

Re: (2) This seems like another attempt to extend British English beyond its borders. Like (1) above, here's no need for it. It's instruction creep. SlimVirgin 03:31, Feb 16, 2005 (UTC)

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