Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Korean)/Archive 5

Name order

Hi, I don't know much about Korean by any means, but the way Korean names are set up has been really confusing me. Mostly because, while Korean names are surname first like in Japanese, they do not follow the same guidelines (see WP:MOS-JA). Now, I'm not saying that a bunch of articles need to be moved to swapped the name, but I do think that it should be mentioned in the lead how the name is structured. For instance, Kim Jong-il could start off as:

Jong-il Kim, usually written surname first as Kim Jong-il, is...

The rest of the article would, of course, refer to him as "Kim Jong-il", since that's what everyone knows him as, English speaking or otherwise. Does this seem like an ok system?--SeizureDog 13:21, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

It is probably better to use {{Korean name}} (cf. {{Chinese name}}). The situation with Japan-related articles is somewhat different, as the custom of using the Western name order for Japanese names is fairly widely followed; this is not the case for Chinese and Korean names. -- Visviva 11:47, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

East Sea (Sea of Japan)

I would like to propose a change to the sea naming convention. In Korea the East Sea is never referred to as the Sea of Japan. Since many people, like me, use this excellent publication as a method for navigation it would be useful to give things their proper names where appropriate. Given the easy linking of articles it should not create problems. It would also provide more information to the reader since the inappropriate naming gives the impression that Korea is willing to use the name, whereas in reality there is continuing hostility to this legacy of Japanese colonial rule.Wrdc 23 April 2007

What exactly is the change you propose? Dropping the “… (Sea of Japan)” in all texts that only deal with Korea?

This is an English encyclopedia, so whatever name dominates in English texts should be used.

You may argue that, just like articles on South Asian topics are supposed to be written in the distinct South Asian variety of English, articles on Korean topics should use “Korean English”, perhaps drawing from Konglish, American English and Korean. Unless Wikipedia accepts the notion of English as one of Korea's languages as well as the notion of distinct Korean English geographical names, it is irrelevant what the sea is referred to as in Korea.

Arguing that the sea is not called Sea of Japan in the Korean language (which is not the case here, as Wrdc said “in Korea”, not “in Korean”) would be a bit like saying the English Wikipedia should use Hanguk and Deutschland instead of Korea and Germany just because those are the terms in the languages that are spoken by a majority of inhabitants of each place. Wikipeditor 01:43, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

On this map from National Geographic,

http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/product/305/1284/173.html

we see the body of water in question titled, East Sea (Sea of Japan). This is a very simple matter. In reference to Japan, Sea of Japan (East Sea) is accepted. In reference to Korea, East Sea (Sea of Japan) is fine. I'm American, I speak standard midwestern English. I use both names interchangably. Let's keep domestic politics out of this. Both names make sense when speaking of the countries in question. Internationally East Sea is vague, so we use the other. This is a really simple issue, we should be fair and reasonable about it. DaronDierkes (talk) 07:38, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I would like to second this suggestion. What could be a better example of proper English language usage regarding geographic place names than National Geographic? I think the English wikipedia should follow their lead with regard to articles about Korea. I would assume that they have weighed the applicable issues regarding naming clarity and cultural significance of names when preparing their definitive maps. If the term East Sea (Sea of Japan) is used, it is 100% clear to anyone reading it in terms of which body of water it refers to. Mcettrick (talk) 17:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Korean music album titles

A new editor has created a page for a Korean album, with the title in Korean. Whether the album is notable or not is not what I'm focussing on, but rather the title itself. Under Wikipedia naming conventions, how should the album be named? It is currently at 한번 더, OK?, but should it be Hanbeon Deo, OK? (or whatever the Romanization is) or One More Time, OK? (its translation)? SKS2K6 00:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

That seems correct. I will move the article to the RR you suggest; I'm not sure why this album needs its own article anyway, but will leave that for another time. -- Visviva 11:48, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Romi Paku/Zainichi

There is some debate over how to properly romanize Zainichi Korean voice actress Romi Paku/Pak Romi. Evan1975 17:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Dual transcriptions

Sometimes transcriptions are given both based on South Korean and North Korean dialects:

• Nyŏngbyŏn
• Rodong Sinmun
• Yeongdong
• Yeongseo

In some cases, transcriptions are only given in either dialect:

• Yongbyon Nuclear Scientific Research Center

What's the official policy on this? Giving dual dialects looks messy, and lots of people probably won't understand what you mean if you write "Nyŏngbyŏn / Yŏngbyŏn". The exact syntax used also differs from article to article. (Stefan2 21:20, 3 November 2007 (UTC))

Suggestion: We must not capitalize the second syllable of given names

Korean people's given names' two syllables are usually separated with a space (because of the Korean government's weird previous policy). But this can confuse the reader. Such as Moon Hee Jun, many people would think that "Jun" is a middle name, which is actually not a middle name. If we write the name as "Moon Hee jun," people will not be confused.

This goes to hyphenated given names also. The letter after the hyphen is sometimes capitalized (such as Lee Chun-Soo) but sometimes not (such as Lee Chang-ho).

We really have to unify this with using a small letter (not a capital letter) for the beginning of the second syllable since they are not two different names. --­ (talk) 23:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

If no one disagrees or no opinion about my suggestion, I will execute this suggestion. --­ (talk) 02:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

it's not that i necessarily disagree with the suggestion; it's just that for many people, it's "officially" done that way. For example, on albums, it says Moon Hee Jun. It's current policy to name people "Moon Hee-jun" unless there's an already existing way of doing so. SKS2K6 (talk) 06:17, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I know, I'm chiming in very late. But Hee-jun's official fanclub shows his name as "MOON HEE-JUN." The cover of SMTown's 2003 winter album calls him "MOON HEEJUN." I can't even count how many different ways I've seen Lee Soo Man credited on SM Entertainment's very own merchandise. Point being, with some possible exceptions, Koreans in the entertainment industry seem to romanize their name variously, for stylistic reasons I guess. Meanwhile, trying to wikilink to these people's articles is time consuming. Without a very prevalent use of one single romanization, would it be best to just follow WP:NC-KO? --hamu♥hamu (talk) 19:50, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

1. Well, most Korean people think hyphens, spaces, or even capitalization are necessary between each syllable. I totally don't understand them; they're stupid. No one writes the name "Jennifer" as "Jen Ni Fer" or as "Jen-Ni-Fer." They really have to be enlightened or something.
2. Or we can write Korean people's name with using capitals to all single letters, like LEE MYUNG-BAK rather than Lee Myung-bak to avoid the confusion with usage of capital letters.

--­에멜무지로 (talk) 07:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Caps are a no per WP:MOS. SKS2K6 (talk) 16:04, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Using caps is the only solution since the capitalization of Korean people's names is really messed up right now. --­ (talk) 02:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Just follow WP:NC-KO; that's the solution. That's a whole lot easier than rewriting the policy to something utterly bizarre, and then trying to make people follow it. --hamu♥hamu (TALK) 03:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I just added "capitalization" and "hyphenation/spacing of given names" section. Please check. --­ (talk) 22:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for my revert:

• "Kim Il-sŏng" and "Yi Seung-man" are examples per "Given name" section.
• "Capitalization" section is duplicate of "Given name" section.
• "Hyphenation/spacing of given names" section contradicts with current convention: 1) Hyphening in "Given name" section; 2) Established spelling should be used even with space. —jisok 01:07, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I suggest these; one of them has to be approved. If an established spelling contains a space:

1. we keep the space but without capitalizing the second syllable, like when we use a hyphen (like Hong Gil dong, not Hong Gil Dong).
2. we replace the space with a hyphen (Hong Gil dong → Hong Gil-dong) so that we can avoid mis-taking the second syllable as a middle name.

I know there is a lot of people (not only Koreans) have spaces in their first names, but it is not recommended. --­ (talk) 05:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

[indent] Two points:

• Established spelling: If a name is established, it should be used however weird it looks. If it's "Gil-Dong" or "Gil Dong" or "GiLdOnG" established, you can't drop it by your own research.
• No established spelling: Your suggestion -- un-hyphening -- needs editors' consensus, and my -1 for that. There're two Korean naming conventions outside WP: "Hong Gil Dong" and "Hong Gil-dong". WP editors are better follow realities; Wikipedia is not a tool to change world. —jisok 08:28, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, in the situation "no established spelling," there's no actual reason to hyphenate two syllables. In the Revised Romanization of Korean, it says the given name is generally not separated by a hyphen. And also personally I don't think hyphenation is necessary. Plus, even Chinese given names are not separated by hyphens. --­ (talk) 21:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually my preference is with you -- single name without hyphen nor space. My objection is about the mismatch with established names which mostly have hyphens (or spaces). But you may try consensus of other editors. —jisok 03:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

With the HELL I've been through trying to get articles to follow WP:NC-KO as it is now, I would oppose any changes to it unless it could be shown beyond any doubt that a hyphen is never, ever used. Since it's used about as often as it's not, this can't be done. So I absolutely oppose changing it. I'm one editor working an entire set of categories by myself; don't change stuff midstream unless there's an insanely good reason. --hamu♥hamu (TALK) 04:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I strongly oppose using hyphen with no established spelling. In the Revised Romanization of Korean, given names are generally not separated by hyphens unless it's really necessary. And this rule (not hyphenating) is currently very well kept in English Wikipedia. So you don't have to be worried!

FYI, there's no reason to break a given name's two syllables. Breaking syllables with a hyphen is the same as writing the name "Jennifer" as "Jen-ni-fer"; no one writes "Jennifer" that way. --­ (talk) 04:51, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

When making general sweeping claims, such as that this Wikipedia follows your "rule", you need to back it up. Show me 20 that do it "your" way, I'll show you 20 that don't. In media written in English by Korean sources, names are formatted a variety of different ways, including with the hyphen. Go to KBS Global and see for yourself. There is precedence for it. You saying that you don't understand Koreans and that they're stupid is not a justification for changing the policy. --hamu♥hamu (TALK) 05:32, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I think it's time to finish this. Let me conclude this.

1. No established spelling: No hyphen or space whatsoever. When a syllable break has to be needed, separate the syllables with a hyphen, not with a space.
2. With established spelling: follow the established spelling whatever the syllable separator is. Keep the original syllable separator.
3. After a hyphen, capital letter must not be used; but after a space, capital letter is used.

--­ (talk) 20:22, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

And my response is #1) No. Follow established policy. #2) No. Follow established policy. #3) No. Follow established policy. We are not going to make a change that will affect thousands of articles without a damn good reason. You have not shown any reason at all that any change is necessary. Please work on implementing the current policy instead of changing it. --hamu♥hamu (TALK) 20:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

The reasons for all three of them is "legacy." That's what everyone has done. So all three of them are actually following the current established policy. This is the only thing I'm trying to unify and clarify: A small letter is used after a hyphen and a capital letter must not be used after a hyphen. Currently, the capitalization after a hyphen is really mixed up; we MUST unify them with using small letters. And you should remember that there's no reason to be pissed off. --­ (talk) 04:42, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not pissed, and I'll thank you to stay out of my business. I am, however, extremely confused because you seem to be contradicting yourself. Please state exactly what part policy you want to change with a very strong justification for the desired change. Please also go around to all Wikiprojects that deal with Korea-related articles and notify them of the changes you want to make (a simple note directing them to this discussion will probably suffice), as that's who it will affect. Any changes you make without doing all of those things and receiving consensus on the desired changes will just be reverted. --hamu♥hamu (TALK) 05:15, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Requested moves

I thought I would drop a notice that I requested the moving of three sport shooter biographies. See Talk:Kim Jong Su#Requested move. -- Jao (talk) 12:40, 25 August 2008 (UTC)