Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view/Archive 024

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Political bias for rules in NPOV criteria

The inclusion of "heteronormativity" into the criteria for NPOV itself should be looked at because the term itself is political, as it is associated with Neo-Marxist Critical Theory. Maintaining it undermines any sense of neutrality. Homosexuality is a controversial issue that is entirely governed by subjective variables, and including a pro-homosexual slant as one of the rule violates any notion of neutrality. [User:Pravknight]--Pravknight 03:07, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

A "pro-homosexual slant" would be an inappropriate bias to introduce into an article, but this isn't an article. We're not aiming for neutrality in our policy; we are actually taking a strong, clear position on our content. The list you are referring to is simply a list of biases that editors might want to watch out for, and may or may not be helpful to individual readers. I suppose that it can be reworded if you think that there is a danger that users will think that Wikipedia policy asks them to adopt "Neo-Marxist critical theory" when editing, but my suspicion is that this is not a pressing concern. Jkelly 03:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest doing just that, mandating a neutral voice in all articles because Wikipedia is taken as an authority by millions who will read what is written here as "fact." Lack of neutrality makes the NPOV rule meaningless.

I edited the GID article because I found it was full of terms and concepts that I would probably find in a GLAAD press release. Terminology such as transgender people isn't just bad grammar as far as I am concerned, it's political language. If an authority on Gender Identity Disorder uses it in a quote, that's one thing, but a as standalone choice of words it's problematic.

In the newspaper business we prohibit the use of such language unless it is in quotation marks. I think it is inapproriate to permit words that editorialize unless they are in quotations.

Considering that by Jimbo Wales' own admission people who contribute here are slightly "more liberal" [1] than most those whose political and religious values are more conservative might find some of the presentations slanted to the Left. Consequently, the NPOV rule needs to mean neither conservative nor liberal buzzwords belong unless they are in quotes.

Terms such as religious fundamentalist shoud be banned unless they refer to a group that describes themselves as such. We wouldn't use the term secular fundamentalist in an article about about religious criticisms of secularism now would we?

I am a news reporter, and I am forced to keep my peace about my political views every day. I just don't want my beliefs slimed because of word choices anymore than you would.

I think we need to develop a style manual akin to the AP Style guide if one doesn't already exist; one that contains language acceptable to both right and left readership. The NPOV rule needs to mean neutrality.

User:Pravknight--Pravknight 00:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be assuming the we're engaged in a rather naive attempt to hit an ideal "neutrality" on a two-dimensional political spectrum. That might be an interesting way to try to write an encyclopedia (what would be the absolutely politically-neutral way to write Bulbasaur?), but it isn't what we do here. We try to encyclopedically summarise major and minor viewpoints. If we're describing some organisation as religious fundamentalists without a reference as to a reliable source, that is a violation of our Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. If that description is given undue weight in the article, that is a NPOV problem.
Your comments above also seem to suggest that you are making the same strange assumption that Robert Cox makes in the interview linked to by the blog entry you linked to. Even if we were interested in trying to adopt writing from a "politically neutral POV" for Wikipedia articles, why would it be defined in terms of not deviating from the current political mood of the United States, which is what User:Jimbo Wales is suggesting that Wikipedia is "more liberal" than? While your journalism background may be very helpful in terms of writing and close reading ability, it may mislead you in other ways, especially if it has lead you to think that there is some neutral, objective truth that lies between two opposing sides. Jkelly 01:13, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
What Jimbo actually said was:
"The Wikipedia community is very diverse, from liberal to conservative to libertarian and beyond. If averages mattered, and due to the nature of the wiki software (no voting) they almost certainly don’t, I would say that the Wikipedia community is slightly more liberal than the U.S. population on average, because we are global and the international community of English speakers is slightly more liberal than the U.S. population.
There are no data or surveys to back that." [2]
If he's right, that's where we should be; we should match our readership, the anglophone population as a whole. As for Cox: he edited a couple of articles on a single subject, declined to use the talk page, and persistently reverted. His case against WP as a whole consists of being blocked after making 5 exact reversions in 24 hours. (There are links to the article concerned from the debate.) Septentrionalis 16:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
The term religious fundamentalism, itself, can be taken in a perjorative context, meaning all religious traditionalists. I would simply prefer a more journalistic approach to content. The articles related to homosexuality and same-sex marriage for example read like GLAAD or Human Rights Campaign press releases. There aren't any strong counterarguments presented, but at the same time I agree about the importance of a neutral tone of voice.

When we are dealing with scholars whose works are open to debate, shouldn't we use attributives such as John Doe claims that x is evidence of y. I think giving more credibility to one side over the other undermines Wikipedia's credibility. Simply because Anglophones in Canada, Australia or Great Britain tend to be more socialist/liberal doesn't mean that Wikipedia should follow suit.

My journalistic training has taught me the importance of being just as fair to people whose views I despise in my writing as to those who I agree with. I've staked my journalistic reputation on that. For example, while I wrote for CNSNews.com, I was never once cited by ConWebWatch for anything I wrote, and I developed a close, actually friendly working relationship with Rob Boston of Americans United For the Separation of Church and State. The same was true while I worked for the former Northern Virginia Journal where I had a closer relationship with Congressman Jim Moran, a political polar opposite to myself, than I had with many Republicans.

The entire NPOV rule should be revamped to eschew both ideological slanting and linguistic slanting. The Left-oriented articles on Wikipedia, from my years of lurking on this Web site, almost never seem to get flagged for POV violations when I say many of them should. Otherwise, the NPOV rule should get junked and Wikipedia should openly declare its ideological affiliation.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.145.70.147 (talk • contribs)

Is this NPOV language?

Does the following constitute NPOV language:

"In response to a 1999 controversy covered by the press concerning a group of Wiccans in the United States military who were holding religious rituals and services on the grounds of the bases they were assigned to, Weyrich sought to exempt Wiccans from the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment and bar them from serving the military altogether. Weyrich, as president of the Free Congress Foundation, led a coalition of ten religious right organizations that attempted a Christian boycott on joining the military until all Wiccans were removed from the services, saying:

"The official approval of satanism and witchcraft by the Army is a direct assault on the Christian faith that generations of American soldiers have fought and died for," Paul Weyrich added. "If the Army wants witches and satanists in its ranks, then it can do it without Christians in those ranks. It's time for the Christians in this country to put a stop to this kind of nonsense. A Christian recruiting strike will compel the Army to think seriously about what it is doing."[3]

According to TheocracyWatch and the Anti-Defamation League both Weyrich and his Free Congress Foundation are both closely associated with Dominionism.[4][5] TheocracyWatch lists both as leading examples of "dominionism in action," citing "a manifesto from Paul Weyrich's Free Congress Foundation," The Integration of Theory and Practice: A Program for the New Traditionalist Movement[6], "illuminates the tactics of the dominionist movement."[4] TheocracyWatch, which calls it "Paul Weyrich's Training Manual," and others consider this manifesto a virtual playbook for how the theocratic right in American politics can get and keep power.[7] The Anti-Defamation League identifies Weyrich and the Free Congress Foundation as part of an alliance of more than 50 of the most prominent conservative Christian leaders and organizations which threaten the separation of church and state. [5] Weyrich has rejected allegations that he advocates theocracy saying, "This statement is breathtaking in its bigotry"[8] and dismisses the claim that the Christian right wishes to transform America into a theocracy.[9] Katherine Yurica has written that Weyrich guided Eric Heubeck in writing The Integration of Theory and Practice, the Free Congress Foundation’s strategic plan published in 2001 by the foundation,[10] which she says calls for the use of deception, misinformation and divisiveness to allow conservative evangelical Christian Republicans to gain and keep control of seats of power in the government of the United States."

I am looking for input as to whether this passage amounts to POV pushing because I already looked at the site and found that the supporting articles are poorly cited and biased. Dominionism is never adequately defined, and all I want to know is if revisions need to be made to give it a more neutral tone of voice. For one, Weyrich's a Melkite Catholic and a self-described Christian Democrat. Does the underlying article qualify as a primary source of credibility?[3]--146.145.70.200 00:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Before anyone spends too much time arguing over this, they'd be wise to read this user's RFC first Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/Pravknight. FeloniousMonk 05:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
It seems just a bit dishonest, Pravknight, to post as an anon to try to skirt any connection to the RFC. Were you trying to get supporting evidence for your RFC? •Jim62sch• 09:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV and Scientfic Theories?

This might have been brought up before and if it has, please provide a link so I can read up on it.

NPOV does not apply when talking abouts facts, such as the moon orbits the earth. However, a scientfic theory is not a fact (it is simply supported by facts via reasonable deductions and inductions). And the nature of science dictates that all theories will have some opposition, regardless of how well established. Now in the case of the theory of gravity, does NPOV apply. How does somebody reply to a challange that says that "The moon orbits the earth due to the force of gravity" is a scientific theory and should therefore not contain POV (rewrite the sentance to "Most scientists believe that the moon orbits the earth due to the force of gravity").

I frequent a lot of scientfic topics (especially biology) and this challange is brought up often. It would be great if the resolution to this problem could be posted on the main page to allow for easy referencing.--Roland Deschain 13:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you are asking: If there is a commonly held idea which has been questioned by modern science, how can the modern questions (theories) be juxtaposed against the established view. One method would be something like this: "The moon orbits the earth due to the force of gravity, however, some modern theories consider the attraction of dark matter [link] to be important. In addition, John Doe has presented his theory [link] which has the U.S.S. Enterprise responsible for our moon's orbit." Terryeo 10:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Does Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Theory help? -- Donald Albury(Talk) 13:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
No, why do you think so? If I understand it well, to avoid weasel style, for those statements to which no notable opposition exists we can simply write it as a matter-of-fact. Thus, "The moon orbits the earth due to the force of gravity" is a perfectly acceptable sentence in Wikipedia except if notable disagreement can be cited (and in that case that alternative POV should be referenced). Harald88 11:17, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Similar disputes are discussed very, very often...too often (I'm guessing) to provide a single link that does justice to the debate. My view is that every issue like this must be argued individually by editors based on the merits of that particular article. A global policy to decide a lot of scientific topics won't do any good, doesn't exist, and shouldn't exist. What that means is that a huge number of scientific articles will continue to have sentences or entire sections that are always being challenged based on notability, verifiability, fact/theory NPOV disputes or similar things. The only way to reply to these challenges is to debate them out in the specific talk page for that article and encourage a community of editors to contribute to the dispute so a consensus opinion is reached. In the long run, that will probably mean that Wikipedia will continue to include more alternative theories and to be more wishy-washy about scientific facts than academic textbooks or other encyclopedias. Maybe the stable-version-Wikipedia idea will correct this, but for now, focus on each challenge individually and focus on finding and maintaining a good community in the talk page to discuss each challenge. Flying Jazz 14:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Flying Jazz's assessment is well grounded. There is ony so much that policy can provide. Good judgement and collaboration by editors, will always be needed. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, and there's a clause already in this policy about making necessary assumptions. FeloniousMonk 16:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Just for fun... gravity isn't a force in General Relativity so the sentence is wrong, anyway :-). Though if by "most scientists" you include all scientists, not just gravity theorists, it probably goes back to being true :-) William M. Connolley 17:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Why not make intro less condescending and redundant?

Jossi? Bensaccount 02:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not see the lead to be "condescending". This policy is probably the most important on this project and needs to be spelled out clearly. The fact that there are other policies as important and this one, and the fact that these work together, it is not redundancy, but essesntial. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:28, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Why spend an entire paragraphs repeating what can be said in two words? Bensaccount 17:13, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Which two words are you speaking of? --tjstrf 17:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with verifiable views; original research is not permitted.
Instead of:
Wikipedia:Neutral point of view is one of Wikipedia's three content policies. The other two are Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. Because the three policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. These three policies are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus. Their policy pages may be edited only to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles.
Why? Because this is central and important policy, and people that come for the first time to tis page shoud be given the benefit of a full explanation and how this policy works with others. Read Andragogy. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Why not just state that the views must be verifiable and non-original. Why do you need to excessively repeat it over and over? I find this aggravating. Do you really think that patronizing the readers in this manner will "teach them"? Bensaccount 02:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Because NPOV is one of the pillars upon which this project is based. And I disagree that it is condescending or aggravating. It is not. New editors (as well as veteran ons) need to be reminded that NPOV is not an islated policy. There are others and all are needed. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't see any condescending in the statement either. It might be possible to state the idea in a few less words, but the policy is the real foundation of our work, after all. Terryeo 10:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Jossi and Terryeo. The current statement is neither patronizing nor is it merely redundant--it says several things that Bensaccount's single sentence does not, and as such it stands as a far more complete introduction to Wikipedia policy, which seems quite appropriate in this context. BTfromLA 05:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Yep. In my opinion all three policies are interrelated. For example, to ensure a neutral point of view, original research would have to be disallowed because it tends to contain inherent bias (and can therefore be used to push a point of view). Also, original research is difficult if not impossible to verify in terms of accuracy by Wikipedia, that's why it should be published in a reliable rigorously peer-reviewed journal first. However it seems that the NPOV policy goes "deeper" than the other two, because it is part of the fundamental "foundation issues" for the whole WikiMedia project. Just my 2c. 70.101.145.181 06:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Quote Unquote

JA: If you don't really care what it says, you could have just said so in the first place. The part about "not a rigid rule" refers to the sentence about double and single quote marks.

Though not a rigid rule, we use the "double quotes" for most quotations — they are easier to read on the screen — and use 'single quotes' for nesting quotations, that is, "quotations 'within' quotations".

JA: The discussion about punctuation marks in and out of quotes reflects what has become the newer standard since about the late 60's, partly on account of computer searching requirements. Jon Awbrey 07:26, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

A question regards NPOV

I have not delt with images much. An image has recently appeared whose summary grants Wikipedia the use of it. However, the summary has a condition attached to it. The condition is stated, "critics of the Church of Scientology are free to use this image". On the face of it, NPOV clearly states that Wikipedia is not a critic of any institution, nor any individual. Quite the opposite, we try in every way to present dry, encyclopedic information from a neutral point of view. For Wikipedia to use an image with the condition attached that Wikipedia can use the image so long as Wikipedia appear (in the grantor's eyes) as a critic, seems to me contrary to Wikipedia's stated purpose. Is there a policy, guideline, or page which addresses this sort of issue? Terryeo 19:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Terryeo is misrepresenting this situation. Please take a look at the discussion at Image_talk:Superpowerbldg.jpg before responding to his request. BTfromLA 19:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Why do editors run around and say that what I say is not the actual situation. I stated the situation as I know it to be. I believe any literate editor will find the situation to be as I state it to be. I don't need another editor interpreting my every statement. I grow irritated with with after months of it. You are misrepresenting the situation, BTfromLA. This is the first time I've really reacted to one of these "chase after terry and tell everyone he is wrong" games. It grows irritating after a while. Terryeo 22:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Editors write that you are misrepresenting something when they believe that to be the case. I think the evidence is clear that the reason Wikipedia was singled out for permission to use that photo is because the owner of the photo recognized that Wikipedia is NOT a critic of Scientology but a site that presents information about Scientology from a neutral point of view--he says that in so many words on his web site. It seems to me that anybody interested in adjudicating this matter will be better informed by looking at the language of the licence and reading the exchange about this at Image_talk:Superpowerbldg.jpg, where possibly relevant facts, such as the origin of the line about Wikipedia and the fact that the web owner is not a native English speaker and thus prone to awkward sentence construction, are introduced. One person has done so, and he ultimately agreed with you. But when you state that Wikipedia is, "in the grantor's eyes" a critic of Scientology, I think you are leaping to a conclusion that is contradicted by the evidence. That is not a fair way to introduce the problem. As to your concern about "games" designed to contradict you at every turn, scroll up a bit and you'll see where my previous post on this page was an endorsement of something you'd said. BTfromLA 23:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, after ChrisO's change of the copyright problem tag for that image, it is now listed here: Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images#August 11. As I suggested at Image_talk:Superpowerbldg.jpg#Actual discussion about the image: if a Wikipedian would go out to take a picture of the building, and then uploads it to Wikipedia under GFDL that would be the smoothest solution of the issue. --Francis Schonken 08:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Conflict of interest

Systematic conflicts of intesest as in autobiographies and paid editing can threaten NPOV. Please see Wikipedia:Conflicts of interest created by User:Eloquence 10 August 2006 in this regard. WAS 4.250 21:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

One wonders. The author of the photo's site is cited in nearly every article of the Scientology series. Terryeo 14:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Having a Multiple point of view policy and removing the NPOV policy

I feel that WP is limmeted by the NPOV policy. If there were more controversial things on WP more people would be drawn here to help the page(s) grow. Ouijalover 22:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC) P.S. Please respond

Please see Everything2 and Wikinfo, both of which have what you are looking for. Jkelly 22:16, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Articles tagged without explanation

How do I handle a situation with an editor who tags articles as POV without giving any reasoning for the tag, or anything that they suggest needs to be done or changed in the article to make it NPOV? Is there a burden on the editor placing the tag to explain the reasoning, and what needs to be done to correct it? If the editor doesn't explain after a certain period of time, can the tag be removed ? Sandy 00:08, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

What article are you referring to? If {{POV}} is added without discussion or at least a reason given in the edit summary, it is often removed in a short time. If there is an ongoing content dispute, it might be assumed the tag relates to that dispute. Gimmetrow 00:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
It's come up a number of times, and I can't recall all the places, but I can give the two most recent examples (not necessarily the best examples). On Criticism of Hugo Chávez, the editor who placed the tag said it was "so the article wouldn't become POV" LOL ! It's a preventative POV tag, according to him. I've been asking him for days to justify the tag and say exactly what he wants addressed (I can't concoct data to present an argument he imagines isn't there). If the article is a POV fork (which can be argued), then the content should be merged into the main Hugo Chávez article. The same group of editors who sometimes make the argument that the Criticism article is a POV fork refuse to allow the content to be merged back to the main article (I removed the content when we were trying to shorten the main article, then they changed their minds about using Summary Style, but won't let the content come back). On Súmate, the editor who placed a tag gave an explanation, which is vague. My question there is does the editor have the responsibility to spell out what s/he considers needs to be changed in or added to the article? Just saying an article reads like it's POV doesn't give one a lot to go on. When I've tagged an article POV, I've given a specific list of problems that needed to be addressed, information that was left out, examples of biased terminology, etc. Is that not how it should be done ? It seems that the person doing the tagging should have some burden of explanation, akin to actionable objections on FAC, so that other editors can fix it. Thanks for the help, Sandy 01:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

"Undue weight" again!

Hi.

What does this "undue weight" stuff have to do with? You say that "tiny minority" views should perhaps "not be represented at all". Wait a minute.. what if people want to find information on these views? Does this means that articles specifically devoted to them are inherently "biased"?! That doesn't feel right to me. 67.138.199.173 20:39, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

In fact, you could write an article about the "tiny minority view" of almost any subject, with a little thought. Especially so if the minority view espoused a unique or different idea from the majority. The article's title could be the unique or different idea which the minority espoused, it could spell out their reasons and reasoning full blown. Then against that, as a controversy, the majority opinion (which holds the minority's opinion as inconsequential) could be placed. (I think, heh). Terryeo 09:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
The quantity of published material is the basis for such a presentation. The idea being that widely published is presented as being widely published, while narrowly published is presented with less article space and, depending on "narrowly published", it might or might not be presented at all. This is not to discourage information being present, but to discourage extremely far out, rarely mentioned things from clogging an article. Terryeo 00:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the anon. This undue weight theory doesn't work. Who's to decide if a viewpoint is to small to discuss? Grand Slam 7 17:54, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course even the tiniest tidbit of information held even by a single person can be presented as an "additional reading" or an "exterior link". Or, in at least some situations, relatively narrowly held points of view (Flat Earth) can be presented in articles of their own.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Terryeo (talk • contribs)
(After edit conflict) By consensus. If consensus is not clear, or would violate policy, then it can go to the dispute resolution process. -- Donald Albury 18:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, why would posting an article devoted to a "tiny" theory/view/whatever be inherently "biased" and non-NPOV anyway, even if the view is published in some sort of journal or something? How does the number of adherents determine this "intrinsic" bias? (I'm the original poster, BTW) 70.101.145.181 06:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable."

This statement seems a little out of place in the lead of the policy. Since WP:V and WP:NOR have no such language, it may mislead the reader into thinking that WP:NPOV overides the other two. When in actualy, WP:NPOV is 'weaker' than WP:V since a point of view from a verifiable source is not the same as a point of view from an unverifiable one.

Maybe it should be moved somewhere else in the policy? --Barberio 12:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The day NPOV is no longer the leading rule is the day I leave. NPOV overrides everything, on all wikimedia projects. If you think otherwise, you have been severely misled. Kim Bruning 12:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, okay, that was my initial reaction. I'd better explain though, lest you think I'm being fanatic for the sake of being fanatic, or some such.
Neutrality is what protects us from many different kinds of lawsuits in many nations, and also gives us much leeway in nations with oppressive regimes. That's why for better or for worse, neutrality must come first, above all other concerns. If you disagree, there's several forks with slightly different rulesets that work differently. Feel free to join them! Kim Bruning 12:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, NPOV is the most absolute of the policies. WP:V and WP:NOR are only ways to assist factual accuracy, both have wide range of variations and exceptions and are strictly enforced only when accuracy is disputed. NPOV is the basic, and both WP:V and NOR may have easements if required by NPOV. Presence of bias in information itself makes it incorrect, unlike other issues. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 13:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Er... Okay, lets quote the lead of all three of the content policies'.
"Because the three policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three."
WP:NPOV is in no way more important than WP:V and WP:NOR, and in fact must be interperated in line with them. You must not apply NPOV to overide Verifiability and No Original Research.--Barberio 14:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Considering the misinterpretation demonstrated above, do we need to strengthen the language so it says 'None of these policies should be taken as more important than the other. Content must satisfy all of the three policies.' or similar? --Barberio 14:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
NPOV is more important, as implied both in the policy, in founders' messages, and in current practices. Also, see User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles. Probably it not exactly overrides - but it is a compelling reason for local easements in other policies, while other policies aren't excuses for deviations from NPOV.
Actually, we here aren't in position to question NPOV policy importance. You would better address Jimbo with that, if you want clarification or have arguments. In any case, policies are somewhat axiomatic and statements "No, it isn't more important", "Yes, it is", "No, it isn't" are basically useless. We can't change policy basing on a guideline or help page. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 14:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

JA: It's clear as it stands. Don't Mess with the Text, Ass! (Regional humor). Jon Awbrey 14:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Kim and I have had this conversation before. NPOV rests on V and NOR. NPOV says that all published views be represented, not all views per se. It's not that one or the other is more important. Rather, the three of them complement each other, and it's the synthesis of them that determines our content. SlimVirgin (talk) 14:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Certainly, they all are important, though the NOR is somewhat supplementary to V. But here comes priority: first, we ensure the source is neutral, or represented neutrally. Then we check about how notable it is. Many reputable sources don't hesitate to lie or represent something in a very biased way. And in this case it doesn't matter how famous the source is: it must be represented as a POV, period. If there is a hundred of sources, we won't sort them by notability to represent views, but rather first ensure all major views are represented, and then select most notable for each major POV. Sources' difference in prominence can't override NPOV policy and allow POV-pushing, while NPOV does enforce us to ensure neutrality, even without strong outside support. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 15:16, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
First we insure the information has been published. Then, that it is verifiable. At that point, discussions can happen about the information but before that point there is no basis for discussions. Terryeo 08:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Involvement with WP:V might lead us to think we must first ensure, or at least adjucate, the neutrality of a source of information. But WP:NPOV does not suggest we do. Rather, NPOV directs us to present information based on its breadth of publication. The neutrality which NPOV states and refers to, is to the amount of published information of a topic. The breadth of publication is the non-negotiable aspect of NPOV. A neutral presentation of a hot topic is done though an encyclopedic presentation which uses "breadth of publication" as its non-negotiable foundation. WP:V then supplies ways to weed out "unpublished" information and ways for editors to adjucate broadly published from narrowly published. WP:NOV excludes unpublished information.Terryeo 17:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
That's close to what I tried to say: representing a source neutrally means that we attribute its claims to that source, and mention criticism, as well attributed to published critics. So, NPOV determines the most general outline, what views can be presented, and WP:V (+NOR) requires that we use sources, and helps to decide which sources exactly to select for each POV.
For example, imagine a war where a few nations with highly developed media have bombed another nation to the degree when it can only publish a couple of newspapers abroad. If we followed WP:V as primary, we would had to only list sources and only represent POV of the attacking nations, which is plain absurd. That's why NPOV can only work being slightly more powerful, overriding selection of sources based solely on WP:V, and enforcing inclusion of sources from both sides. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 18:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
That is an interesting illustration. In such a situation, there might be an article about the media (western POV) and an article about the media (Eastern POV), and yet another (African POV). In some articles the most published information (available anywhere on the planet), NPOV would require the most broadly published to be flooded into the article. While in an article about African Media, (as a possible example), the vast amount of published information in Western Media might be used only for comparisons. Terryeo 19:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, if we write about media, yes, but for the main article, not so. The policy tells us to represent all POVs in the main article. And we're not wikiality, so number isn't all. Breadth of publishing is only secondary, while reliability is primary, as stated in RS. And, in case of different POVs, both sides should be represented. For a war, they should be in general case represented equally, and not based on how much mediafirepower each side has. -- CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 20:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Reliability of publication is primary.
  • Breadth of publication is secondary.

CP/M statement is, I believe an excellent differentiation. That is the foundation of my confidence in Wikipedia. In the Scientology Series where I am active Reliability is dismissed as secondary because WP:RS is only a guideline. Contrawise, WP:V's the threshold of inclusion is verifiability is used as primary. Personal websites are used extensively because they satisfy that element of WP:V and while personal websites are grudgingly admitted to not be completely reliable, the issue doesn't get clearly stated until after WP:V, at WP:RS. Thence the articles are just chocked full of references to personal websites which are verifiable (from within an article) but are rarely verifiable from a reliable source. Terryeo 18:51, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I consider all three of these to be different aspects of the same thing, ultimately. And at the moment, when I think about any examples of apparent tensions between the three, I think the right answer is to follow all three of them or else just leave it out of Wikipedia. We know, with some certainty, that all three of these will mean that Wikipedia will have less content than otherwise, and in some cases will prevent the addition of true statements. For example, a brilliant scientist conceives of a new theory which happens to be true, but so far unpublished. We will not cover it, we will not let this scientist publish it in Wikipedia. A loss, to be sure. But a much much bigger gain on average, since we are not qualified to evaluate such things, and we would otherwise be overwhelmed with abject nonsense from POV pushing lunatics. There is no simple a priori answer to every case, but good editorial judgment and the negotiation of reasonable people committed to quality is the best that humans have figured out so far. :) --Jimbo Wales 15:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
And, I guess, the central thing all policies are ways to ensure, is truth, as close as we can get to it? CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 16:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. --Barberio 16:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
The threshold for argumentative editors is verifiability, however, the actual threshold, as stated in NPOV, is publication, it is not until such publication is challenged that "verifiability" need present itself. Terryeo 17:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Inarguably; but don't put the means above the ends. Verifiability is, by its very definition, the possibility to ensure that a statement is true. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 16:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
"Verifiability" is to insure that a statement exists. Said statement's validity matters not to an encyclopedia. Terryeo 17:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
No. The term 'Verifiability' as used in WP:V means 'can be independantly checked', not 'ensure to be true'. --Barberio 17:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Is there difference? Don't pick on words. Can be independently checked, and, more exactly, can be independently checked to be correct. (Well, one can also check something to be false, to produce Uncyclopedia). So it all revolves around that. We can't make sure if OR is true. We can't make sure if some statement is true; but we can point one to people who, with their autrority, confirm it is true. We can't decide which POV is true, but we can represent the major ones. Actually, the policies are connected, but they are not things in themselves, but means to improve correctness. See Jimbo's reply above: NOR serves to protect us from uberscientists like Archimedes Plutonium, V from people with whatever claims, NPOV from POV-pushers. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 17:21, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
It makes a good deal of difference. A statement's being valid is one thing. Whether said statement was actually made, another. Terryeo 17:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm speaking not about the words, but about the purpose. Really a lot of statements have been made throughout history, and we don't catalogue them. The only sentences useful for articles (except of POV-dedicated) are ones who have, among all, higher chances to be valid - that's why reliable sources are used. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 18:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:RS (reliable sources) has been created by a concensus of editors who have understood and thereby followed WP:NPOV + WP:V + WP:NOR. It represents the concensus of editor opinion, applied to specific instances of "reliable, published information". Terryeo 19:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

WikiP's "Holy Trinity"

From Jimbo — "I consider all three of these to be different aspects of the same thing, ultimately. And at the moment, when I think about any examples of apparent tensions between the three, I think the right answer is to follow all three of them or else just leave it out of Wikipedia."

Others wiser than me have already pointed out how much this doctrine is similar to the Catholic faith (the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (or Spirit)).

I'm still enjoying viewing the angst of the mental and emotional struggle going on here (even joining in from time to time), though I am sure I will never be able to reconcile the three aspects of the same Holiness. Guess I was just born to be a Unitarian.

Sincerely,

GeorgeLouis 18:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Heh ! It is really only one datum. An editor uses the information which is most broadly published (Per WP:V) to present the most broadly held idea in an article. WP:NOR eliminates certain potential information which would discolor an article. In hot topics, the broadly published point of view is presented as being broadly published. The actual basis of NPOV is; "What have people been willing to spend money to publish", or, stated somewhat differently, "What have people been willing to spend their money, buying?" And then Wikipedia articles simply reflect that result. If, for example, everyone knew there were aliens who visited earth every evening, but no publication house published the information, Wikipedia could not create an article about the nightly visits. Terryeo 19:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Aren't you confusing V and NPOV? It's V what people spent money on. Also, I'll add: We rely not om most broadly published data, but on most probable to be correct. For instance, archives may never be published broadly, but can often be two orders of magnitude more worthy and reliable than all newspapers-and-like publications. And NOR separates wikipedians' own research (though if everyone knows something and can check, it's OK to write article - like for apple pie).

CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 20:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is WP:V that people spend money on. But it is WP:NPOV which states: "All significant published points of view are presented, not just the most popular one." This means that unpublished points of view are not presented. It is the buying public which controls the broadness of publication with their money, that is the foundation for Wikipedia's NPOV. To say it another way, popular information, being widely published by people with the money to publish, will control the POV we present in articles. The Buddhist Monk whose life is devout and austere, who publishes nothing, well, his philosophy won't appear in Wikipedia. But if it did, it would be placed up against a vast amount of more commonly published Buddhism. Terryeo 08:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
While you are proving the truth, there's something wrong in your basis. Foundation for NPOV is NOT the buying public. It is NOT popularity as well. It's not the buying public which controls sources. It's the publishing one; and publishing doesn't necessary assume buying, especially buying by public. For instance, a serious web site, like http://fas.org is a publication as well, despite it sells nothing.
We use published sources only because unpublished sorces are unverifiable. But it is, I repeat, not about buying. If there is a thousand copies of a document, but they are accessible, it can be a source, if it is official and reliable. And it will outweight millions of printed and sold books filled with clueless speculation. A publication in a small scientific journal is more reliable than another popular conspiracy theory. Money might influence our information, but that is a problem, and one of the goals is to make money not control the articles' POV.
Briefly, we use published sources simply because something unpublished is a very poor source. But breadth of publication doesn't matter a bit. Only reliability. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 09:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Um, you seem to be making a fundamental mistake in your reading of the NPOV policy. Editors should not be making independent value judgements on a POV. NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Prominence, not 'closeness to the truth'. --Barberio 10:28, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Specifically, that have been published by a reliable source - see WP:RS. The point missed is that breadth of publication doesn't define reliability. The breadth of publication of Da Vinci code far exceeds that of any historical research; but breadth doesn't matter - we cite reliable sources, not broadly published. The sorting between reliable sources involves breadth of publishing; but it's reliability that defines inclusion, not sales. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 10:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It's neither 'Breadth of Publishing' or a judgement on reliability. It's prominence of the POV. To use your argument, presentation of 'The Da Vinci Code' as 'a semi-real account' has been highly publicised, but it is not a prominant point of view. A minority of people informed on the subject support this view. And it is this measure we must use, not 'truth' or 'reliability'.
To be inclided, a POV has to come from a verifiable source. However, the way we present this POV in terms of avoiding undue weight, and it's relation to other POV, is be assessing the Prominance of this view. --Barberio 13:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
We're trying to say almost the same. 1) Reliability 2) Breadth; well, prominence is the term used here to describe it. We use positions of experts, because they have higher chances to be right, and measure views by experts position. That's why books of fiction writers like Ron Hubbard or Dan Brown are presented as fiction and given minimal, if any, note in facts-related articles, no matter how popular they are and how many people believe in them, but prominent experts views are represented even if not widely known or published. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 13:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


Its really simple: NPOV applies to views. Views must be verifiable. Why not just put this in the intro already? Bensaccount 21:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV can't stop a majority of pseudoscientists

As I mentioned in NPOV policy does nothing, the Ayn Rand related articles are a de facto exception to the NPOV rule. Because of the tyranny of the majority there, the articles are always skewed in the favor of Rand's followers and there's nothing that the average Wikipedian can do about it.

But there's another problem with the NPOV rule that this presents: Wikipedia can't handle pseudoscience. We don't have admins who are educated enough in various topics to stop pseudoscientists from taking over, and we don't have any that are willing to learn enough about the subjects to handle them. Thus, if a majority of pseduoscientists take control of an article, nobody can stop them because they can censor the article to remove anything they disagree with and the admins won't know the difference between the legit stuff and the fake stuff.

Rand's article is a shining example of this. Rand is not considered a philosopher by the vast majority of academics, and is rejected by most of them, but the Randists continue to trick the admins into thinking they are right because they can present poorly researched sources and sources from their own organizations. The fact that they never give real academic sources is completely ignored by the admins, who think any source is equal to an academic one. Thus, Wikipedia pushes pseudoscience because, ironically, Wikipedia is uneducated about the very subjects it writes about and doesn't have enough academic education to tell the difference between legit sources and illegit ones. Again, the NPOV rule does nothing. -- LGagnon 04:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV requires that information used in an article be published information. WP:V requires that information used be verifiable information. It follow then, widely published information will flood an article. If narrowly published information is flooding an article, there should be editor discussion toward a NPOV. Terryeo 00:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Are you saying that Rand is a pseudoscientist? What claims of a scientific nature does she make? BTfromLA 04:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
She is a pseudophilosopher, which isn't that different from a pseudoscientist. -- LGagnon 04:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I think that it would be much harder to present an unambigous case for Objectivism as a non-philosophy than for, say, astrology as a non-science. I'm a little confused about the point at which you begin to object, and I haven't been following the Rand articles. Are you objecting to her being introduced as a philosopher at all -- would an intro with "Ayn Rand, novelist and self-taught philosopher" seem over-the-top to you? Or is your objection based on the fact that the low regard in which she is held by academic philosophers (and the reasons for that) are being squeezed out of the articles? Clearly, the latter should be included in the articles, at least the major ones, assuming proper sources. I'd need to see a strong case before endorsing removing all reference to her status as philosopher, though. BTfromLA 04:59, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
It goes against the grain when an editor who knows a subject well is in the minority and a concensus of editors mis-present information. Probably anyone who had earned their education would feel the same, were the article in their own area of expertise. I still don't understand the motivation for the several editors who kind of (but not exactly) control the Scientology articles because it is completely obvious to anyone educated in the area that the information is not presented by knowledgeable editors. Terryeo 08:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
Ayn Rand 
I wouldn't extrapolate the Ayn Rand case. It is specific. Jimbo Wales has said publicly he is or was a follower of Rand, and was deeply touched by a couple of her books.[4] I suspect that that fact, and maybe that that attracts pro-Rand wikipedians (and similarly: detractors), has triggered some overzealous reactions in pushing the Rand-related Wikipedia articles beyond the limits of usual Wikipedia articles.
Nothing wrong with Jimbo having his examples and heroes. But it makes this particular case a bit touchy. No lack of sysop involvement there, afaik.
Pseudo-science 
for those who have been following this page for some time it is common knowledge that there was a surge of pseudo-science enthousiasts let's say the first half of this year. The part of the NPOV policy that speaks about pseudoscience (now at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/FAQ#Pseudoscience) remained virtually untouched. I can imagine that for some articles the situation will never be very easy. But the NPOV policy is clear IMHO: science is a wider view than pseudo-science. Pseudo-science should never be presented in a fashion as if it were scientific. Under these conditions it is perfectly possible to write about lots of interesting pseudoscientific topics. Yeah, maybe in some cases this would call for getting one's foot down with the "non-negotiable" aspect of the NPOV policy... Inform some sysops if this doesn't work out in particular cases, hopefully they know what to do best (e.g. semiprotect a page, etc, depending on circumstances).
Scientology 
try to avoid Terryeo getting started on that topic. Just a friendly advise. --Francis Schonken 09:11, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

By some reason "anti-Rand" editors are of the opinion that editors that do not agree with their point of view, are all "Rand followers". I would avise LGanon to discuss the topic at Talk:Ayn Rand and pursuse WP:DR to raise his concers. NPOV works ... it may take some time, but it does at the end. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 10:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

That is not true. I never asserted that anyone who disagrees with me is a Randist. I simply stated that it is impossible to tell who is and isn't, as they have used sock puppets to increase their numbers (we have, on more than one occasion, proven this to be true). And again, dispute resolution does nothing, so I'm not going to continue using a method that's proven itself to not work. -- LGagnon 02:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
If you believe that "Dispute resolution does nothing" and that NPOV does not work, why are you editing Wikipedia, may I ask? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 02:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
That has nothing to do with my argument. You are committing an ad hominem by focusing on my actions instead of the current argument. -- LGagnon 03:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Since LGagnon bothered to link to the talk topic he started on the Resolving disputes page, I'll repost the (as of now) last comment there, for the edification of passers-by. Note the date. JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Quoted from the bottom of Wikipedia talk:Resolving disputes#Dispute resolution does nothing:
Suggestions? Bearing in mind that judging the validity of arguments on arbitrary subjects is hard (esspecially for busy people not already familiar with the subject). In any case, RfC is intended to be exactly what you asked for. It doesn't work as well as it might because we have more disputes than people who wish to become involved in them, but that is the idea of it. JesseW, the juggling janitor 01:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia can't handle pseudoscience - not true. Wiki struggles with it, but usually succeeds. We had this with global warming and eventually the arbcomm stepped in on the side of the angels. Ditto the Reddi case. Do you have any specific examples in mind? There is a wikiproject on it, though its rather dormant... William M. Connolley 17:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia's content is decided by the majority's opinion. If that opinion doesn't match the facts, they can still win because there's rarely a strong match for majority power. Admins are technically able to do something about such situations, but they are not always willing to help, and sometimes they get caught up in the ignorant majority as well (as admins are not always educated enough on the subject matter to be able to handle it). The Rand article is a perfect example of this: there are more fans of Rand working on it than neutral editors, and thus they are given de facto NPOV immunity. The admins could do something about it, but they simply aren't there all the time; they rarely show up, and once they leave the edit wars start up all over again. -- LGagnon 23:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I haven't looked at the Rand article, but I have just taken a look at the 'Atlas Shrugged' article after reading this thread, and while I'd agree that it's a little tilted towards Rand and the Objectivists, it hardly helps when, for example, apparently anti-Rand posters add comments to the article saying that 'people only read it for the sex scenes'. Similarly, calling it 'Mein Kampf rewritten by Barbara Cartland' (or whatever the exact quote is) is funny, but hardly helpful or the kind of thing I'd expect to see in an encyclopedia. There's certainly room to improve it, I can't see that's the way to do it. Mark Grant 01:03, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The thing is, it's very hard to make a well balanced criticism section for a Rand book because 1) almost all reviews are hard to find, as they are rarely reprinted due to the fact that book reviewers think she's too worthless of a writer to bother doing so, and 2) literary academics think she's a worthless romance novelist whom they shouldn't waste their time and skill analyzing. I know that sounds a bit biased, but Rand is seriously hated by the mainstream literary elite to the point of being ignored. In short, it's incredibly hard to do proper research on criticism of the works of such a shunned writer. -- LGagnon 05:06, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, there are two things you can do. First, if anyone makes positive claims about Rand or Objectivism, just make sure that the article is crystal clear as to the source and origin of the source - one part of NPOV is making sure that articles are very clear about WHOSE view is being expressed. Second, if within these claims are also claims about "philosophy" one thing you can do is just find a bunch of frequently assigned introduction to philosophy textbooks (clues: textbooks in their seventh edition; also, you can e-mail the top departments in the US and UK - Berkeley, Chicago, Michigan, Harvard, Princeton, Oxford,Cambridge, LSE - and ask them what intro textbooks they most commonly assign. Then, look up Rand and Objectivism in the indices. Then, add that information to the article. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you understand; Rand is very, very rarely ever given so much as a mention by academic philosophers. You won't find her in a philosophy textbook, and you're unlikely to even hear her mentioned in a philosophy class. She's considered to be a bad philosopher at best and not even a philosopher at worst. Trust me, I've tried to find work on her at the local university, and absolutely nothing came up, as academia has no interest whatsoever in covering a pseudophilosophic romance novelist. -- LGagnon 17:19, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I don´t think you ujnderstand. IF anyone makes a claim about philosophy, they have to back it up. You can ask them to detail how many times Rand is mentioned in philosophy textbooks. If the answer is once, or none, that is a verifiable fact and relevant to any of their claims about philosophy. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I think LGanon has a reasonable concern which I would like to address. Let us be frank: we do not have any good mechanism for enforcing quality on an article. I have in the past suggested a few which were ignored or shot down and I gave up. The community as a whole resists this. That said, LGanon, do not give up. Even when cranks and POV warriors are in the majority, you really do have one weapon which is often - perhaps not always but more often than you might think: tenacity. IF the core policies (NPOV, NOR, Verifiability) are on your side, are being violated, just keep making the necessary edits or revert violations of policy. Keep doing it, and here is the key to winning: never violate 3RR, always act in good faith, and be excruciatingly polite, and keep making the necessary reverts or edits. If you are tenacious, here is what will happen: at least one of the POV warriors will loose his/her cool. When that happens one of two things will follow. (1) He or she may just quit. It happens, just wait for it to happen. (2) He or she will become very abusive to you. Keep making any and all changes that are absolutely clearly justified by policy, and keep being as polite as a UN Secretary General. He or she will become even more abusive. At THAT point you can go to ArbCom. They will make a ruling not based on violation or compliance with NPOV, NOR, or Verifiability, but they will make a ruling based on personal conduct and as long as you are tenacious AND keep your cool you will win. This may seem like an awful lot of work for you. It is. But it often works. I am just saying that when the majority are cranks and POV pushers, one person can still bring them down if s/he is patient, tenacious, adheres rigorously to all policies and is always calm and polite. And if you can find just one person to help, who is equally calm and polite and equally patient and tenacious and equally committed to our core policies, it becomes much easier. The key is to provoke them to violate a rule of personal conduct - this is Wikipedia´s version of civil disobediance (being disobedient to the majority, if you are civil and are right - in this case, in terms of having the core policies on your side), you can in time get them to show their true colors which I assure you are (if they really are POV pushing cranks, I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here) either luny or nasty. At that point, the system will work for you. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I hope that Wikipedia:Reliable sources might be a solution to the problem. It requires that editors know the topic well and enforce the use of sources that are scholarly. --JWSchmidt 01:45, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"Pseudoscience" comes up from time to time in the Scientology series. We just insist on quotations and references, following WP:V and presenting broadly published as the prevelant point of view. It has been a hot issue sometimes, but Wikipedia policies work for it, there. Terryeo 01:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

"broadly published as the prevelant point of view" <-- I hope that means: "broadly published in reliable sources" Wikipedia has no need to even mention published propaganda and disinformation no matter how widely distributed it is. --JWSchmidt 18:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

My statement was incomplete and you have stated the completion. Terryeo 21:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Exactly so. WP is about facts, not about mass-media opinion. Only views of reliable sources are to be presented as major views. Criteria may be higher or lower, but a reviewed science paper unknown outside scientific circles holds a hundred times more weight than a newspaper speculation. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project|
It depends on the context. NPOV as a policy depends on the idea (and presentation) of context because the identification of point of view involves an account of its context. Propaganda and disinformation sometimes must be provided in Wikipedia in order to represent the point of view of the propagandist. The article on anti-Semitism provides a perfect erxample of where this is necessary. What is important is that the point of view of any propaganda and disinformation be correctly identified. Moreover, if there are verifiable sources that identify something as specifically propaganda or disinformation, those sources must be included to comply with NPOV. The point is this: we do not present any point of view "for its own sake," we do so to comply with NPOV in any given article. NPOV is not about truth and it is not for us to say what is true or not. However, NPOV is about including and correctly identifying multiple points of view. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Edit warring

Just what do you think you are doing?

Writing an essay, making a userpage, or, maybe, emulating IRC chat?

CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 22:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Asking "Just what the phoucque are you doing?" (as you wrote in your edit summary) is a breach of civility, a violation of Wikipedia policy. I suggestion you calm down and don't get yourself in trouble. -- LGagnon 23:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Hey, I didn't use the f-word! ;-). And the superbritish version is parodic, so if one doesn't have enough SoH to get that, one has a major problem. BTW, really only a f-word would be appropriate to describe what people are doing when they editwar about a main policy - so keep low until it gets to US! --CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 00:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to give Kurd related topics an exemption from this policy

We have an abondance of pov forks such as Turkish Kurdistan or Kurdish celebration of Newroz. We also have plenty of articles which are not remotely neutral Kurdistan, Kurdistan Workers Party, etc...

Since I cant get Kurd related articles in anyway remotely neutral (as its either "Kurds are the best thing since sliced bread who are also oppressed like no tommorow" or "Kurds are evil") we might as well make this something official.

--Cat out 23:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

These articles should be reviewed and corrected collaborately. I'll bring this topic to the attention of the Wikipedia Neutrality Project, and, since it requires a broad review, I encourage everyone to attend and fix bias possibly present in these articles. Present state isn't a base for policy exceptions, it's policy what determines the proper state of all articles. I'd appreciate if you and other editors come to the WNP talk page and explain bias you've spotted in detail, and, again, to everyone - please don't overlook these issues. --CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 23:39, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I'll be happy to do that. (sorry for my barraging in btw) --Cat out 23:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks in advance. I also hope other editors will join the effort to fix any ethnocentric bias, as it requires most attention. --CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 23:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
I have posted something on Wikipedia talk:Neutrality Project (its probably not at the right place). I havent presented any detail as I want people to look into it on their own first. --Cat out 23:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

NO. Give no topic any exemption ever. As soon as there is one topic there will be 10,000 topics with their editors screaming, exemption! exemption !! exemption !!! Don't start this. Terryeo 18:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Cool Cat, didn't you try unsuccessfully to get Turkish Kurdistan deleted because you thought that discussing the (widely documented) political concept was unencyclopedic, or something like that? (added: yes, you did). There is no exemption from WP:NPOV for any article. The subject of an article may be uncongenial to a particular POV (Srebrenica massacre, Allegations of Israeli apartheid, Islamophobia etc), but that doesn't mean to say that the article is itself POV. -- ChrisO 19:37, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV: That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion.

Did the author of the NPOV really mean to include a statement to the effect that theft is now a value or opinion (reference to stealing under "A Simple Formulation")? I suspect he may wish to revise that particular section. JimScott 21:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

He's technically right. The morality of theft is actually a highly debated subject, or at least what does and doesn't qualify as theft does. For instance, see wealth redistribution. --tjstrf 21:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
See also capitalism. GeorgeLouis 06:13, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to include (and in one case use as a replacement) the 'trinity' quote.

Following discussion here, I'm going to propose that we include the following to the lead of each policy. In the case of the NPOV policy, this also includes removing a previous quote on the matter which has been superceeded.

In the words of Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales, "I consider all three of these to be different aspects of the same thing, ultimately. And at the moment, when I think about any examples of apparent tensions between the three, I think the right answer is to follow all three of them or else just leave it out of Wikipedia."

For the sake of clarity, please discuss this on Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view. --Barberio 18:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I oppse this, though not passionately. Basically, I (1) do not think it adds anything that hasn´t been saids, (2) if our policies are unclear in some way, quoting Jimbo is just an excuse for not figuring out the real weakness and working on it, and (3) with all due respect to Jimbo, I think it sets a bad example to appeal to him as an authority. We already do it - genug. We just don´t need to do any more of it. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Can I ask if you think we should remove the current Jimbo quote from the NPOV lead then? --Barberio 01:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I don´t have a problem with it. I just don´t want us to go overboard looking for additional Jimbo quotes, that´s all. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:47, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem with the current one is that, since it's only present on the NPOV page, it seems to imply the NPOV policy overides the others. Which is contrary both to the policy and the above statement from Jimbo. --Barberio 18:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

No, it doesn´t. That is because the paragraph that follows makes it clear that all three policies are inviolable. Just because Jimbo didn´t write it does not make it insignificant. In fact, Jimbo´s whole idea was that lost of people besides him could write a great encyclopedia, including policies to guide it. We don´t need another quote from Jimbo to say what we ourselves have already said. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:37, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'm confused. Can you clearly say yes or no to should we have a quote from Jimbo in the lead. And if you think we should have a quote, say which one.
Please note that people have in the past mistaken the NPOV policy to overide the others. So I think that if we are going to have a quote in the lead of the policy, it should be one that can be applied equaly to all three to avoid this. At the moment the policy does seem misleading in that it contains a citation that NPOV is 'absolute and non-negotiable', while Veriviability and No Original Research do not. This can lead to the assumption that in a 'fight' between the three, NPOV wins. Which is contradicted by the comment above by Jimbo. --Barberio 10:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
That's because NPOV did actually override the others, apparently opinions have been shifting. Kim Bruning 11:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
NOR is really just an expounding of a certain part of Verifiability, which itself exists so that we don't have to be NPOV and "balanced" about ideas that no-one actually possesses. NPOV is the primary policy of those 3, the other 2 are supports for it. --tjstrf 16:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
This actualy directly contradicts both what the policy says, and what Jimbo has said on the matter. (See above.)
This can't be said enough, NPOV IN NO WAY OVERRIDES OR HAS PRIMACY OVER V AND NOR. The confusion over this seems to support removal of the quote in the NPOV lead that was introduced in April, since it's clearly causing people to misinterperate the policy. --Barberio 17:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Even if I am incorrect, which I may be, that does not mean that NPOV's non-negotiability or absoluteness has been rescinded. Merely that two other absolute policies also exist.
Out of curiosity, what possible situation would even exist where NPOV could contradict Verifiability and NOR? If you write a properly NPOV article, it will be verifiable and contain no original research by its very nature, due to the undue weight clause in NPOV. The inclusion of unverified information and original research would break undue weight, hence violate NPOV, even if those two policies did not explicity exist. (which is why I believe them to be simple expansions of the NPOV policy) --tjstrf 17:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
The problem is that there are a significant number of people who only read the lead section of the policy. There have been numerious content disputes which start when one party insists on making changes in violation of V or NOR, and use NPOV as a justification in support. The Policy text should avoid situations where we even give the appearance that NPOV can override V or NOR. --Barberio 17:35, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
That indicates a misunderstanding of the NPOV principle on their part, especially the undue weight clause (which, for some odd reason, is not mentioned in the intro). People who only read the intro of a policy really should not be attempting to invoke it in the first place.
In the interest of actually resolving the question at hand, I'll throw an idea out on the table: create a sub-section called "Jimbo on NPOV" under history and rationale in which both the absolutism and trinity quotes are included, as well as any other major quotes he has made on the policy, such as the original formulation mentioned in the history sub-section. --tjstrf 17:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
2 Tjstrf: Not very funny, and not considerable, of course.
2 Barberio: Jimbo != God. Jimbo is alive and accessible. We shouldn't seek out his quotes, but, if we agree that we need a change, just ask him to throw a short speech about his opinion on NPOV. That's pretty much all. No need to replace one quote with another.
Generally: No policy may be violated. This means no overrides. However, NPOV is still more essential: unsourced information (WP:V or WP:NOR violation) is to be tagged, moved to talk page or, best of all, sourced; POV is to be removed on sight. There are easements and exceptions to V and NOR; not a single to NPOV. The reason is that OR or non-V text is harmful only if false; POV is harmful always. --CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 18:03, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
"Not very funny"? Huh? Could you please explain what you meant by that comment? --tjstrf 18:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm not in proper mood - maybe it's actually quite funny. Anyway not considerable seriously, since this is not about Jimbo, but about policy. We may throw in a quote or two, but not a section - it's just off-topic. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 18:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, it is on-topic. Barberio takes issue with having the present quote in the intro, and raises a good point that it may not be useful to have in the first paragraph. But the quote is a useful one to the policy itself, as are a couple others, so I thought making a subsection where the quotes could be included might be a convenient solution. --tjstrf 21:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
It might create an incorrect impression that NPOV policy is either especially favored by Jimbo, or is his personal obsession he insisted on throwing in. CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 02:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Where do you get POV is to be removed on sight, and POV is harmful always? POV is to be balanced, not removed, as long as it is verifiable and not OR. The only material that must be removed on sight is unsourced negative material about living persons, and that is more about verifiability than about NPOV. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 21:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, that's more about lawsuits than anything else. --tjstrf 21:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
POV insertions always were, and now are being removed, sometimes even too harshly. It is to be balanced, but first removed, then balanced, then reinserted. In simple cases, when all other policies are met, POV can be fixed by attributing claims to the sources and adding at least a mention of opposing claims. But if each claim is verifiable, but together they form a POV, or in other cases when it can't be easily fixed, it's OK and proper to remove biased parts overall, leaving them in history or, in salvageable cases, on the talk page. It's how it works, and, if people try to do it other way, WP will quickly lose whatever hints of reputation it managed to get. --CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 23:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
WP:NPOV in a nutshell says, All Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias. How can you represent views fairly and without bias if you throw them out? What you are saying would make more sense to me if you talked about edits that move an article away from a balanced POV. The problem is that while one editor may think that a particular edit inserts an egregiously unbalanced point of view, another may think it is just the thing to bring the article into balance. I don't think anyone is truly capable of writing a truly balanced article without input from other editors representing a variety of viewpoints. At any point, an article is going to favor one viewpoint or another. Careful application of the NPOV policy should, on average, move an article closer to an ideal, completely balanced state, but even in the best articles there will be some sort of 'Brownian motion' of the article's point of view around that ideal point. Getting all of the editors contributing to an article to agree on on the location that ideal point is another matter. -- Donald Albury(Talk) 01:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Of course, not throwing out views per se - but removing POV from text if possible, or removing the piece overall if not. It is especially so for articles which are not at starting level. Articles should not be battlegrounds for POVs - not even for balance purposes; only for neutral representation of existing points of view. In most cases it is way easier to rewrite something from scratch rather than turn POV-pushing into legitimate neutral text. --CP/M comm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 02:44, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV is impossible

Technically advanced nations have more media power, which affects points of view of the wikipedia editors. Even quite smart people are getting brainwashed sometimes (especially in political and philisophical matters). First of all, when someone postulates a false statement one thousand times, it doesn't looks false anymore. Second, the biggest bias is omitting of information, not presenting all of information. Even if the information is presented, it wouldn't be giving a media attention. Taking example from the page, they cry about Saddam Hussein, but doesn't give any major attention to other dictators, which aren't confronting USA interests (Pakistani and many more). Or, they talk about serbian atrocities on every street, yet doesn't mention anything about albanian atricities, their nationalism. Thie bias is impossible to fight. because the west, especially USA has too much of political, technological and finansical power. Yet, having power and money doesn't make you NPOV! Think about that, americans.