Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view/Archive 29

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Archive 29


Contents

Terms for killings

I've started a subpage (Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view/Killing_NPOV) for discussion of an RfC regarding the proper unbiased terms to use for killings. I've seen this problem in very many articles where a pejorative or biased label for a killing (murder, atrocity, massacre, brutal murder, etc.) is used as objective fact (rather than offered as someone's opinion). Please direct any comments you may have there. Fourdee 01:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Proposed addition to NPOV

Pursuant to issues raised in the above discussion it seems to me that some clarification of NPOV is needed due to probably unintentional ambiguity in how it is phrased. I have started another subpage (hope that is the right way to handle this) at Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view/Fact_disputedfact_value which outlines the proposed addition of the following table:

How to phrase propositions
Proposition Description Examples Voice
Fact A factual statement which is not disputed. Mars is a planet.
Tennis is played with rackets.
Water is a liquid.
 Voice of editor.
Disputed fact A statement of fact for which there are differing published opinions or which has been questioned by another editor. John F. Kennedy was shot only by Lee Harvey Oswald.
All events are pre-determined.
Humans evolved from other mammals.
 Attributed to published source.
Value (opinion) A statement of value, worth or morality. The holocaust was barbaric.
Rembrandt is one of the most important painters.
Powered flight was a significant accomplishment.
 Attributed to published source.

Again please direct comments to Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view/Fact_disputedfact_value as apparently there is some considerable dispute about the place of value judgments on wikipedia and this may take some time. Fourdee 10:04, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

NPOV as an excuse for censorship?

Ive seen NPOV used as an excuse to delete sourced material that is claimed to be POV, even tho editor has has simply listed facts from a source that is considered reliable at least by him. In this case the opposing editors declare that their POV is not represented by enough sources and thus the sourced material should be removed as it is in their mind in violation of NPOV, while refusing to find sources because then their lock on content would no longer hold. Is this use of NPOV as a tool for censoring other editors work supported by the policy? --Alexia Death 20:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The issue of "subterfuge excuses" for removal or refusal of content is like a weed, it always comes up somewhere. Nevertheless, even if the motive is not entirely honorable, that does not (necessarily) render the decision illegitimate. Moreover, there's always WP:AGF to consider.
Therefore, your most productive course of action in this kind of situation will probably consist of involving more WP contributors, and taking more time to enhance: 1) substantiation through sources; 2) the rationale for inclusion; and 3) your reference to specific aspects of WP policy to reinforce why your viewpoint is correct. All of these have to be done on an article-by-article basis. dr.ef.tymac 21:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Assume good faith just means I must assume people doing this belive they are doing the right thing. I have never doubted that they believe their actions to be right because of belief that their material is so much better. Witch I why I write here to check if this use of NPOV as a content control tool is officially sanctioned or are they in error when believing that NPOV means that if they have no sources to give, different POV should not be represented in detail even when sourced.--Alexia Death 05:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
It depends on your definition of censorship. If you consider any removal of verified information to be censorship, then to answer your question, yes. I know of an article about a company that I keep watch on that may fit your description of censored. It had about one short paragraph of neutral context information then about 9 paragraphs of criticism. Most of the criticism was removed, even though it was mostly well sourced. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 23:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
I hope the criticism was not removed completely but moved to a separate page? Or if it did, it was removed because of notability issues and not NPOV? --Alexia Death 04:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Remember that NPOV is a m:Foundation issue. That means if there is a conflict between say NPOV and WP:V and WP:RS, then NPOV "wins". NPOV requires that we provide a balanced perspective of our subjects. We must be cautious about undue weight and unfair presentations. In the case of single-source claims, especially when they are contrary to the majority of sources, they can be interpreted as requiring exclusion due to the undue weight restrictions of NPOV. Wikipedia is not censored, but Wikipedia is also not a soapbox. Vassyana 17:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Okay, so what you are saying is that when there is a case where there is a good source that describes facts unpleasant and denied on some level by some editors, then if they cant or wont find their own sources to balance the article then the information should not be put into Wikipedia?`If you are then my fears that NPOV is a a way of silencing the opposition by inactivity or in some cases by the nature of the material are true... There are plenty of cases where equal representation of both sides of POV by sources is not possible because on one side there is no corresponding material, just blanket statements of denial... --Alexia Death 20:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Claims must be verifiable in a reliable source and cannot be conclusions based on the sources. This is true of all material that may be challenged. However, what constitutes a "good" source is highly subjective and if the material contradicts the majority of other sources, it requires additional sources to validate the claim. Please take a good look over the boundaries laid out regarding undue weight, as it directly relates to your concerns. Vassyana 21:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for pointing me to to the relevant sections. It has cleared the picture a fair bit and I'm able to understand NPOV a bit better. This however raises a major issue in the the debates I participate. I debate in historical articles about a small country. About 1 million people. It has a neighbor it has had conflicts with over the history that stands at about 150 million people. In articles about that country and its relations to its big neighbor, does difference in population make the views of that country on the past conflicts minority views? If there are many supporters for views on general but if detailed research is made only in that country would showing that be undue weight?--Alexia Death 06:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Although others may see it differently, population statistics and national demographics generally do not mean a particular viewpoint is necessarily a "minority view" for purposes of this policy. If you look at the example of "Flat Earth" versus "Spherical Earth" (presented herein) you will see that the notion of a "minority view" consists of an explanation or set of assumptions that do not coincide with a predominant view of established and recognized authorities.
For some topics, the notion of an established authority is not entirely unambiguous, and therefore competing viewpoints should be given more consideration as long as they are relevant to the subject matter of the article. This is especially true for topics that are not falsifiable, but rather subject to personal interpretation and values (e.g., nationality, social issues, politics, military conflicts).
Since WP is intended to be international in scope, entirely omitting viewpoints based on a proportionately small demographic cohort would be like entirely omitting continents from a map based on a proportionately small land mass. To further this example from cartography, it might be considered "undue weight" if the small continent were situated in the center of the map, and enlarged to show greater detail (unless the article is specifically dealing with that continent) ... but "undue weight" is not intended to encourage contributors to entirely omit legitimately contested and relevant issues from articles. For more on this, see the section of this policy entitled "Bias". dr.ef.tymac 13:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Possible oxymoron in the phrase "Neutral point of view"

An anonymous user left a message on a talk page which got me thinking: would a neutral point of view really be a point of view at all?--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 17:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

This whole NPOV thing makes little sense, in my opinion. The policy states that objectivity is impossible, and then says that it is possible to avoid disputes, as if avoiding disputes were not the same as objectivity. A.Z. 21:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Can any point of view be truly neutral? I mean every POV has to have some sort of basis, in theory creationists probably think science is biased, therefore not neutral. Therefore we should change the NPOV into something more meaningful, like "the author of this article appears to be biased on the subject" or something along those lines. In theory even if you quote something and write it down, it still holds someones view, so sooner or later there's bound to be a person that's not neutral. Unless we write statistics on anything, there's bound to be non-NPOV.
If you read what WP:NPOV says, you'll have your answer. "Neutral point of view" doesn't mean we should search (in vain) for a single point of view that's neutral. It means that neutrality comes from fairly representing all points of view, none of which is neutral by itself. Pan Dan 17:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
You've used the word "fairly", but fairness is a POV. Moveover, if "representing" different POVs, unless you're directly quoting them, you're doing synthesis, in violation of WP:SYN. Which directs to WP:NPOV. I'm told this is okay, so long as you can find one source which covers your synthetic POV, so you have a cite for it. Alas, that doesn't cover the issue of balance, and whether or not you've been fair in representing different POVs. You'll never get a cite for that, since it would require some outside-wikipedia publication endorsing your balancing of POV's in your wikipedia article writing, and good luck finding that. Especially if you just finished it.

Look, why not simply admit, in this article, that the production of any Wikipedia article is going to ultimately, at some level of writing judgement, going to require either some kind of uncited synthesis of facts or POVs, or else uncited judgement about balance of synthesis of POVs in your writing? Which itself is of course a POV, and one which you are (in all likelihood) never going to be able to provide a WP:ATT CITE for. Since THAT would involve outside-wikipedia publication of some judgement on the style and POV balance of the particular Wikipedia piece which you're working on. Thus, you are bound to transgress NPOV badly at some level, or metalevel, for any Wikipedia work. In the name of honesty, why not just admit the inevitability of this? And then be done with it? I'm tired of all this pretention of objectivity in the face of an enterprise which is ultimately driven by polling and voting on ArbCom, and similar fora. SBHarris 22:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The neutral point of view is basically that a wikipedia article should read as if there was no vested interest or interpretation at work. That would likely not be true, but ultimately, by having multiple editors who edit eachothers work, it can get asymtotically close to that. A neutral point of view would simply be a statement of fact, not opinion. Of course its wrong, nay impossible, to expect a user not to have some sort of non-neutral point of view, however, that doesn't mean they can't write neutrally. With regard to A.Z., avoiding disputes doesn't require objectivity, just agreement, and a basis for coming to said agreement that all participants are willing to use.--Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk|@ 22:25, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
That's exactly it - no objective measure of neutrality exists.-h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 14:16, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Can something be relative and neutral?

There has been some recent discussion about the neutrality of relative terms such as "tall" and "short" and other things. It has been said that it is never NPOV to call someone tall because that is a relative term. I'm almost certain that is not what is intended by NPOV, but I admit that a relative statement that doesn't specify what it is relative to is a potential source for dispute. It can be asked, "Tall compared to what?" The discussion that originated this question is rather silly, so I won't bring it up, but suppose I were to say, "Shaquille O'Neal is tall." Would that be a violation of NPOV? We've got reliable sources to say that he is over 7 feet. I am thinking that "Shaq is tall" is beyond serous dispute. -- Lilwik 21:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

For something that obvious I would be surprised anyone who would argue that on their own would be smart enough to live that long without falling into a well. Relative statements are NPOV as long as they are used in relation to some average or standard. A Bently or Maserati is expensive because probably 90% of production cars aren't comparable to them in price. Shaq is tall because most people are significantly shorter than him, and even among people of similar race/regional heritage/genetic descendancy or whatever you want to call it, he's notably taller than average. The best way to avoid this in cases where there could be a dispute would probably be to be as specific as possible without getting rediculous. If you can, use a relative term with what it is relative to. In some cases citation will be needed to establish the standard and/or the trait of the object in question. To use the car example again, it would be easy to establish that a maserati is expensive, no sources probably needed, but if you were to state that it is faster than most cars, you'd probably want to source some top speed figures for both it and the industry at large. If you were to say that a certain building were tall, source its height, and you probably want to mention how that height stacked up relative to other buildings. --Oni Ookami AlfadorTalk|@ 22:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

NPOV description

I've made a couple of edits to this section to fix a slightly misleading impression that may be given:

  • OLD - "The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly."
  • NEW - "The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. The policy requires that, where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic, these should each be presented fairly."

Significance: It ensures the discussion of "conflicting views" is in relation to conflicting views within the topic, not conflicting views between editors.

I've also tried to remove the impression that all views are discussed without heed as to weight, by a few minor wording changes elsewhere.

DIFF. FT2 (Talk | email) 09:41, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I've followed your recent mods, FT2, generally I think it's a useful clarification. Good edits and good work. dr.ef.tymac 01:09, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Confusing sentence

Old version

"It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them."

Proposed new verion

"It is also generally important to give the facts on which these views are based, as well as making it clear who holds these opinions."

Does this convey the meaning that is intended more clearly? Tim Vickers 02:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Uggh. If you ask me the entire section is confusing, so much so that I am going to stick my neck out and make direct copy edits right now -- and stand-by for whatever comments or concerns people want to forward. I think this is clearly a case of text that makes sense primarily to experienced WP contributors, but needs clarification for the General Audience. This should be relatively straightforward. dr.ef.tymac 15:18, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Let's work it out here:

Original version

But it is not enough, to express the Wikipedia non-bias policy, just to say that we should state facts and not opinions. When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.

Draft 2

A balanced selection of facts is critical for producing articles with a neutral point of view. For example, when discussing the facts on which a point of view is based, it is important to also include the facts on which competing opinions are based. This should be done without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also important to make it clear who holds these opinions. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.

Is this clearer? Tim Vickers 15:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Tim Vickers, for the mod, for moving this to talk, and yes, I think Draft 2 is clearer (the version you just pasted into talk) modulo some minor punctuation changes. dr.ef.tymac 16:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
If you don't mind, I am going to re-add the last draft to the article as an invisible comment, because the bolding and footnotes get clobbered with a paste to the talk page. dr.ef.tymac 16:10, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I think that having articles express opinions... even in the words of others should be discouraged. The whole idea of having one opinion expressed and then an alternative opinion being expressed is ugly. But its even worse if you run into situations where only one person or one side has bothered to express an opinion. In that case there is no "other" side to quote, so wikipedia is forced to take a stand. So, I think expressing opinions should be discouraged and when there is only one side expressed, a relatively low burden of support should be required to remove the opinion from the article and a very high degree of support should be required to include it. And when it is considered reasonable and appropriate to include opinions, THEN these guidelines should take effect and the opinions expressed should be in the words of people who are BOTH reasonably recognized as authorities and recognized as reliable on the subject at hand. It may seem like being a recognized authority and being recognized as reliable are inseparable, but they really are not. I am thinking, for example of people who are reasonably considered to be medical authorities but who are also recognized as unreliable crackpots on certain issues. I know of a person who is used as a reliable source on an historical issue here in wikipedia but he has been shown to be utterly wrong. Yet because he is considered a reliable source his bad info remains in one particular article. So, both authority and reliability should meet very high standards for their opinion to be included and even higher standards if their opinion is the only one presented. --Blue Tie 01:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
This point is already addressed here in WP:NPOV, which states in relevant part:
    Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts in the sense as described above. (emphasis 
    not in original)
The policy also suggests (although the current policy wording is quite sub-standard) that "opinions" are appropriate only to the extent that they can be represented as "facts" (through attribution) ... the policy nowhere encourages opinion as a substitute for "fact". Also, it is implicit that "opinion" is only appropriate when necessary and proper for the subject matter.
As far as opinions being acceptable from "sources regarded as reliable," that wording appears to be an un-discussed unilateral modification to the policy, and has not yet been substantiated. dr.ef.tymac 02:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposed wording for - "A simple formulation"

Assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.

By value or opinion, on the other hand, we mean "a matter which is subject to dispute." There are bound to be borderline cases where it is not clear if a particular dispute should be taken seriously and included.[1] However, there are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That the Beatles were the greatest band in history is a value or opinion. That the United States was right or wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion.

Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts in the sense as described above. Therefore, where we want to discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to someone and discuss the fact that they have this opinion. For example, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say: "Most people from Liverpool believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which can be supported by references to a particular survey; or "The Beatles had many songs that made the Billboard Hot 100," which is also verifiable as fact. In the first instance we assert a personal opinion; in the second and third instances we assert the fact that an opinion exists, by attributing it to reliable sources.

It is not sufficient to discuss an opinion as fact merely by stating "some people believe..." as is common in political debates.[2] A reliable source supporting that a group holds an opinion must accurately describe how large this group is. In addition, this source should be written by named authors who are considered reliable.

Moreover, there are usually disagreements about how opinions should be properly stated. Sometimes it is necessary to qualify the description of an opinion, or to present several attributed formulations, simply to arrive at a solution that fairly represents all the leading views in those matters subject to dispute. As an example, there is a dispute over using the name "Sea of Japan" to refer to the sea bordered by Russia, Japan, North Korea, and South Korea. The Sea of Japan, or equivalent translations, are currently most common in international productions, but North and South Korea insist on different names. North Korea proposes the "East Sea of Korea" and South Korea proposes the "East Sea", or the "Sea of Korea/Korean Sea". To fairly reflect these views in articles discussing this sea, the most common name of "Sea of Japan" should be used, with the alternative terms noted and attributed to the respective countries.

A balanced selection of sources is also critical for producing articles with a neutral point of view. For example, when discussing the facts on which a point of view is based, it is important to also include the facts on which competing opinions are based since this helps a reader evaluate the credibility of the competing viewpoints. This should be done without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also important to make it clear who holds these opinions. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.

Comments on new draft

I don't like the change to credible dispute. This really opens up a can of worms as people fight to dismiss what they deem as not "credible". The dispute should follow Undue Weight and Verifiability. Morphh (talk) 15:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok, "credible dispute" was not intended to open that can, but instead intended to clarify the difference between:
  • 1) Stuff that no one seriously disputes;
  • 2) Stuff that reasonably informed people dispute, as can be demonstrated in reliable sources; and
  • 3) Stuff that only crackpots and trolls dispute.
For the sake of discussion, let's just assume these three categories exist. Can you provide an alternate phrasing for category (2)? ... That's what I was using "subject to credible dispute" as shorthand for. The clarity of this subsection suffers seriously without a shorthand way to say (2). dr.ef.tymac 16:05, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
How about something like "subject to verifiable dispute of due weight"? Although, this goes against the purpose of the rewrite (to make it simpler). I agree that #2 is what we're after. I just worried that credible is a subjective term that we have not defined and that it could be used as an easy way to dismiss something. Then the debate turns to what is credible. I've gone through similar disputes. Credible may be the best word.. I'm just thinking out loud and the term struck me as an issue. There is a jump from "some dispute" to "credible dispute" but I agree with the breakdown - just not sure how to word it. Perhpas leave it as credible with a reference to your #2 statement. Then we're giving some definition to credible. Morphh (talk) 16:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Follow-up: The phrase "credible dispute" is now gone entirely from the draft. This should obviate the need to ponder this matter anymore. dr.ef.tymac 17:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Re-worded and referred to undue weight. Tim Vickers 16:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Update: Re-added formatting, footnotes, additional changes. I changed the "undue weight" mention to a "see also" footnote, because "undue weight" describes proportionality between the varying "sides" in a dispute, whereas in "simple formulation", one question is whether the entire dispute itself is legitimate. In other words, if no one seriously disputes "water is wet" ... then no "opinions" (pro or con) should go in the article at all, and thus "undue weight" is (in that instance) moot. dr.ef.tymac 17:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The phrase "objectively quantifiable population" will lose most readers, I'm not 100% sure what it means myself! Tim Vickers 17:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, (that's been in from the very beginning, I never knew what it meant either :). dr.ef.tymac 17:31, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Made it very simple. Too simple? Tim Vickers 17:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
If there are any specific detriments or caveats, I'm sure someone will come along and propose them. For now, it seems we have: 1) clarification and reasonable improvements to readability; and 2) substantial improvement to the final paragraph (the issue that got this whole ball rolling). Absent any major objections, I think this re-draft is suitable to go live. dr.ef.tymac 17:45, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Follow-up: Note, personally, I think "how large this group is" should be replaced with something more general like "statistically valid sample" or "describe the group" but the main thing is the section is a bit more readable to general folk. dr.ef.tymac 17:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
To avoid the mess that comes when amateurs wield statistics with harmful intentions, I used the phrase "accurately describe" instead. Tim Vickers 18:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Comments on proposed addition of final draft shown above

Looks good to me. Morphh (talk) 19:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Me also, this definitely clarifies the matters initially mentioned by Tim Vickers. dr.ef.tymac 21:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we should add this, it has the same meaning - so is not a change in policy, and it seems much clearer to me. Tim Vickers 19:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I strongly object to this, because it's badly written and therefore unclear. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:53, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
What in particular do you find unclear? Do you think adding back the phrases "identifiable and objectively quantifiable population" and "generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views" from the old version would make this more clear? Tim Vickers 20:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
To SlimVirgin: Can you please enumerate the specific deficiencies you are talking about? This will help clarify your concerns so other contributors can make a good-faith effort to address them. Thanks. dr.ef.tymac 21:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Update: Still waiting for other contributors with alternate viewpoints to join in on the discussion. In the meantime, I've added minor adjustments that correct minor (yet blatantly obvious) flaws. This is just a band-aid for the policy page; the entire section still merits updating as proposed here in talk. dr.ef.tymac 15:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Follow-up: Additional note for the sake of principle. Edits to WP policy pages by contributors who are parties to an ongoing content dispute are rightly subject to a very high degree of scrutiny. If anyone has forwarded proposals here specifically to advance a position in a pending dispute, they will do well to demonstrate good faith by disclosing that fact openly.

Modifications to policy should be strictly for the purpose of clarification and consistency. Attempts to change the substance and meaning of policy (without prior discussion and consensus) are entirely inappropriate. dr.ef.tymac 19:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Due to the rather fraught atmosphere around the policies at the moment, I think it would be a good idea to wait a week or so to see if anybody else has any substantive comments about this proposal for a clarified summary. Although the present section is roundly condemned by all the editors involved as unclear and badly-written, it might be a bad idea to assume that silence on this talk page implies acceptance. Tim Vickers 19:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

More comments

Tim asked me to comment. I think the new draft is an improvement. Particularly, the 3rd paragraph is great, and it's much improved. It does an excellent job of explicitly showing how to state facts about opinions instead of stating the opinions themselves. I like that it's so concrete. Unfortunately, after the 3rd paragraph, I think the discussion kind of gets lost. Here are a couple suggestions:

  • 4th paragraph: 3rd sentence could be cut; "reliable source" covers it. It would be nice if this paragraph became a summary of WP:AWW and linked to it.
I really don't want to change the wording that much, this is only intended as a clarification with the same meaning.
  • 5th paragraph: too vague. I'm not sure what it's trying to get across
Added ID as an example.
  • 6th paragraph: Is this about balance or citations? I'd love to see a "balance" paragraph about how to describe the sides of a controversial dispute (abortion and intelligent design come to mind). A balance paragraph could also warn about the inherent biases in the population of Wikipedia editors. A separate paragraph about how to cite sources (which are appropriate? how should the source be described in the text?) would also be useful.
Changed from "facts" to "sources" Tim Vickers 23:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Good work so far. I'd support inserting it as is, but it'd be great if there were a few improvements first. Good luck, and let me know if I can do anything to help. Gnixon 16:06, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

As an example, intelligent design is described as a scientific theory by some people, but as a religious idea by others. is fine as a really bad example, but to me it creates the impression that as long as the "people" are attributed, all will be well. This would be likely to still violate NPOV: Pseudoscience and NPOV: Undue weight. So, if we're giving an example, show how to do it properly –

As an example, saying "intelligent design is described as a scientific theory by some people but as a religious idea by others" is not acceptable, but the opinions should be attributed in accordance with NPOV: Undue weight, for example – "intelligent design is described as a scientific theory by its proponents but the overwhelming majority of the scientific community reject this assertion, and a U.S. Federal court has found it to be 'religion, not science'."

Citations would be expected, and all three points can be cited from s:Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District et al.. Just my opinion. ...dave souza, talk 07:57, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I feel a tangent coming on....  :) I agree the statement is much better when more specific, but an IDer reading it might object to the tone that comes out of phrases like "overwhelming majority" and "reject this assertion." Here's my try at a dispassionate phrasing:

Intelligent design is described as a scientific theory by its proponents, but the U.S. National Academy of Science has said that it is not science (cite), and a U.S. federal court has found it to be 'religion, not science' (cite).

By the way, I think Tim's original statement was fine as a representation of what you might find by surveying everyone in a grocery store, but it's not clear whether it refers to the opinions of the general population or of experts. I think the revisions by Dave and myself are a nice example of how simple, concrete statements can be used to maintain NPOV (often making a sentence more informative at the same time). Another way to go would have been to discuss surveys. On the other hand, maybe ID is a little too complex to present as an example here. Gnixon 14:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Dave, I've tried to add this correction in a slightly simpler form, to include Gnixon's concerns. Tim Vickers 14:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Urgent Recommendation: IMHO the latest revision of the proposal is in all respects quite well-constructed, all respects except for one. I'd like to (vehemently) suggest the example citing "Intelligent Design" be entirely removed, and replaced with an example citing "Flat Earth" ... there is simply too much "baggage" associated with the former example. It is almost certain to engender quibbles, tangential discussions, and distraction from the principle purpose of this policy.

Moreover, the "Flat earth" example is already included elsewhere in this policy; even in sections of the policy that are adequately-written and coherent. If it is concluded that "Flat earth" is not sufficiently contentious to illustrate the core principles at issue here, then I propose changing it to an example that does *not* center on religion, such as a disputed naming convention. (See e.g., Geographical_renaming#Naming_disputes, Sea of Japan naming dispute).

I beseech you, please avoid examples involving "religion vs. science". dr.ef.tymac 16:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

That is a good point. Although this is a good example, its inclusion would probably cause instability. I've replaced it with the "Sea of Japan" example, is my summary an accurate one? This isn't a dispute I have heard of. Tim Vickers 20:06, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Sea of Japan looks reasonable at first glance, but it would be nice to show a specific phrasing. Gnixon 14:21, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Moving towards consensus?

Hi everybody. Is there anybody who has any objection to the current draft of the summary being added to the article? I'll put the two next to each other to allow simple comparison. Tim Vickers 16:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Old version

Assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.

By value or opinion, on the other hand, we mean "a piece of information about which there is some dispute." There are bound to be borderline cases where we are not sure if we should take a particular dispute seriously; but there are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That the Beatles were the greatest band in history is a value or opinion. That the United States was right or wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion.

Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts in the sense as described above. Where we might want to state an opinion, we convert that opinion into a fact by attributing the opinion to someone. So, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say, "Most Americans believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which is a fact verifiable by survey results, or "The Beatles had many songs that made the Billboard Hot 100," which is also fact. In the first instance we assert an opinion; in the second and third instances we "convert" that opinion into fact by attributing it to someone. This is not the same as the "some people believe..." formulation popular in political debates. The reference requires an identifiable and objectively quantifiable population, and should be attributed to named individuals who are regarded as reliable.

Moreover, there are usually disagreements about how opinions should be properly stated. Sometimes, it will be necessary to qualify the description of an opinion or to present several formulations, simply to arrive at a solution that fairly represents all the leading views of the situation.

But it is not enough, to express the Wikipedia non-bias policy, just to say that we should state facts and not opinions. When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.

New proposal

Assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can.

By value or opinion, on the other hand, we mean "a matter which is subject to dispute." There are bound to be borderline cases where it is not clear if a particular dispute should be taken seriously and included.[3] However, there are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That the Beatles were the greatest band in history is a value or opinion. That the United States was right or wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion.

Wikipedia is devoted to stating facts in the sense described above. Therefore, where we want to discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to someone and discuss the fact that they have this opinion. For example, rather than asserting, "The Beatles were the greatest band," we can say: "Most people from Liverpool believe that the Beatles were the greatest band," which can be supported by references to a particular survey; or "The Beatles had many songs that made the Billboard Hot 100," which is also verifiable as fact. In the first instance we assert a personal opinion; in the second and third instances we assert the fact that an opinion exists, by attributing it to reliable sources.

It is not sufficient to discuss an opinion as fact merely by stating "some people believe..." as is common in political debates.[4] A reliable source supporting that a group holds an opinion must accurately describe how large this group is. In addition, this source should be written by named authors who are considered reliable.

Moreover, there are usually disagreements about how opinions should be properly stated. To fairly represent all the leading views in a dispute it is sometimes necessary to qualify the description of an opinion, or to present several formulations of this opinion and attribute them to specific groups.

A balanced selection of sources is also critical for producing articles with a neutral point of view. For example, when discussing the facts on which a point of view is based, it is important to also include the facts on which competing opinions are based since this helps a reader evaluate the credibility of the competing viewpoints. This should be done without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It is also important to make it clear who holds these opinions. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.

  • Hi everybody, please don't vote, this isn't a straw poll. Just say if this is OK with you or not? Tim Vickers 19:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Support. This is an improvement. However, it's troubling that "A simple formulation" has almost doubled in length. Can we trim it down either before or after it is inserted? I feel like a lot is repeated within the last three paragraphs. Gnixon 17:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a vote, but that's a good point. Most of the size increase is the Sea of Japan example, and I can see this inclusion of a controversial example causing problems for stability, I've removed this entirely. Tim Vickers 17:43, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Support Morphh (talk) 18:12, 03 July 2007 (UTC)

Looks good to me, just two points:

Text size: regarding the size, some of the text was subsumed into footnotes. The footnotes contribute to the bytecount, but obviously not the body text itself. If "Sea of Japan" (or any alternative example) becomes necessary, it can also be re-added as a footnote.

Reminder: Also, there may be some issues for contributors who have commented in edit summaries, but have not contributed to this ongoing discussion in any detail. Since this is not a substantive modification to pre-existing policy, there may be a need to remind people that this is not a "change" but rather a "clarification" ... in case this latter point becomes an issue. This proposal (IMHO) survives good-faith scrutiny from someone familiar with established WP policy, but everyone has his or her own way of seeing things.

Really though, it'd be a waste not to implement this (or a substantially similar) improvement. dr.ef.tymac 19:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

In an effort to improve the clarity of the guideline, I have added the new proposal. People are welcome to revert this addition, and if you do so, please explain your objections here so they can be discussed. Tim Vickers 03:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


Writing in the FAQ

I think this page needs a rewrite, and that the policy tag should come off it in the meantime. It's hard to see how an FAQ can be policy in the first place. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 07:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you referring to removing the policy tag from the NPOV page itself or from the FAQ page only? -- Black Falcon (Talk) 07:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Just from the FAQ page. SlimVirgin (talk)(contribs) 07:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
OK, then I have no objection. In fact, I think the policy tag ought to removed from the page altogether. It is, after all, just a FAQ. -- Black Falcon (Talk) 18:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I don't see how a FAQ could be 'policy'. Crum375 18:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The wording in the FAQ was developed on this page. It's labelled policy because it was written into policy originally. Marskell 15:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

<unindent> Help!!! If the FAQ is no longer policy, then we have a policy of Common objections or concerns, but no policy clarifying the answers to these concerns. As it is, guidance on several sensitive talk pages now points to sections that have disappeared from the FAQ: for example, Giving "equal validity" is a common concern with no evident answer in the FAQ. Could you please consider the proposed improvements in a sandbox, meanwhile leaving the headings for us folks working on articles who need to refer to them. It does seem daft having a FAQ as policy: the answer to that is to make Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Common objections and clarifications into a set of brief statements in a section that could be headed Common clarifications – if we don't, we end up with no policy on Pseudoscience. The FAQ could remain as detailed background and clarification, but would no longer be policy. In the short term, a return to the previous status quo would greatly help at a time when arguments about what is or isn't science from theology students and sockpuppets seem to be increasingly frequent. .. dave souza, talk 17:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, given the degree to which the FAQ has been referenced as policy, stability would be preferable (i.e. rewriting in a sandbox and de-policying it only when there's some sort of replacement to address the "common concerns"). Which aspects of it do you think need to be rewritten? MastCell Talk 18:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
This page has always been policy ever since it was spun-off of WP:NPOV last year. I see no reason why any rewriting requires a change in that status, particularly when it can and should be done in a sandbox/subpage beforehand. I'm not even sure a rewrite is in order, particularly when one considers that some of this language appearing here appeared on the very earliest versions of the main NPOV page way back in 2002. Have our guiding principles changed that much? Odd nature 23:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I strongly feel this page should retain the format and rewording it had when it was spun off the main policy page, for what it's worth. And clearly it must remain policy since it was policy before. FeloniousMonk 02:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Agree. I believe it was Francis S. who initially spun it off because this page was so big. The argument then was that it would defeat the point in moving it if it ceased to be policy. The recent rewriting was undertaken without consultation. Marskell 10:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


Sympathy

I'm seeing a contradiction in this article:

As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject.

We should present all significant, competing views sympathetically.

Are we presenting them sympathetically or not? Richard001 05:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out this inconsistency. I have changed "sympathetically" to "impartially" in the latter sentence. Presenting competing views sympathetically can result in an article that is still not neutral, but rather presents multiple POVs. I think the concept of "impartiality" more closely captures the purpose of NPOV rather than "sympathy". -- Black Falcon (Talk) 08:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I support the change, though I neglected to mention that this is stated three times in the policy page, I only quoted one of them. You may need to make a couple more changes as well. Richard001 08:12, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Heh ... I'd missed that. Thanks for noting it. I think I've changed all but the first instance: "It is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject". -- Black Falcon (Talk) 08:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I had argued against the usage about a year ago, and had at least managed to change "Sympathy of tone" to "Fairness of tone." So I approve the latest change. "We can write with the attitude that such-and-such is a good idea..." was particularly bad. Marskell 14:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


Quoting names of other religion, races, communities, individuals as examples with dictionary terms those used as a tease

It is ok to use names of religion, races, communities, individuals as examples for dictionary terms those are traditionally used as a prejudice?BalanceRestored 13:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Mmm, could you unpack that with an example? Marskell 13:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Lets say we have the name of the religion *you* belong to be placed at a dictionary term that's used to tease people. The current article does not give examples for the same. It is considered ok.
If a young child who's growing sees the name religion he belongs to is being used as an example with a dictionary term that's a negetive one. How will the child feel, won't he start feeling bad about the same?BalanceRestored 13:40, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I saw the article named nigger, it is clearly pointing to a section of a world. Is that a good example for good psychological growth of a community. Would that not cause depression?BalanceRestored 13:42, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
That's not the article I am talking about. There's some other one.BalanceRestored 13:45, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm not understanding 100%, Balance. "Nigger" is probably the worst slur in the English language and there's no perfect way to describe it without potentially upsetting someone. Wikipedia is not censored so we do not, for example, use "n****r" or the "n-word" when we describe its usage. Marskell 13:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok, then should such articles not be clearly criticizing the usage and being prominently apologetic? BalanceRestored 14:01, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Remember wiki is a great place to be at, every child who's born in the world will see this place and will reach here with the kind of penetration it has. There are sever medical problems associated with the same. You can very well consult a psychological expert about the same. The article starting with apology if examples are quoted should be there very clearly from the beginning of the sentence. We all are here to make the world a better palace, aren't we?BalanceRestored 14:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
No, we should not be clearly criticizing its usage. We should describe its usage and let the facts speak for themselves. This is central to the neutrality policy, and I think in it's own little way it does make the world a better place (or at least it makes the internet not suck :). Marskell 14:31, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Should we consider having a practice of getting opinion from the community members whose names are mentioned at wiki. Just a suggestion. They would be the best judge if the article talking about them are bad or good. But yet I am not fully aware of the problems associated with not having the articles. BalanceRestored 14:42, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
That practice would not conform to our current policies on neutrality and conflicts of interest. Subjects of articles who have concerns about the content of an article about them are encouraged to submit their concerns to the article's talk page or to contact Wikipedia via e-mail (see here). In addition, actively soliciting the input of subjects of articles is not always possible (contact information is absent) and generally undesirable (it can easily be construed as an invasion of privacy and/or pestering). In general, attempts to contact the subjects of articles are discouraged and any detailed contact information (phone number, address, e-mail) for individuals should be removed on-sight (with an exception of contact information provided by editors on their userpage). -- Black Falcon (Talk) 15:53, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Context: Please see this ANI discussion for background information. Abecedare 23:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

This is a bad example of venue-shopping. The issue has been discussed in this thread at AN/I. --Ragib 09:23, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Does this page Wikipedia is not censored not talk about deleting the text if it is found objectionable?BalanceRestored 11:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it does talk about that. Content should never be deleted for the sole reason that one editor finds it "objectionable". Black Falcon (Talk) 16:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Should there be a voting and then the article be removed?BalanceRestored 06:34, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


Just as I and others indicated in the ANB report linked above WP:IDONTLIKEIT isn't a reason for removal of any article. BalanceRestored was rebuffed at the ANB thread, and has come here to shop for a new venue.

To put the issue into proper perspective, he is claiming that the word Nastika is an abusive term. However, Dictionary definition from established sources show that the word means:

নাস্তিক [ nāstika ] a disbelieving in the existence of God, atheistical; disbelieving in the Vedas or scriptures. ☐ n. an atheist; an infidel.

Unless Wikipedia starts censoring words, such venue shopping is just wastage of everyone's time. For details, please refer to the ANI thread linked above, and Talk:Nastika. Thanks. --Ragib 08:56, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

NPOV, or we are all moral relativists here

Quoted thesis from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view

Thesis: That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion.

It is, in fact, neither. I offer this for clarification ( I owe this to the distinguished American philosopher, John Kekes, whom I over-heard in conversation)

Revised thesis: That the arbitrary torture, rape and murder of young children in front of their parents and siblings is wrong is a value or opinion.

Such a point of view is often associated with early Wittgenstein and "the Vienna Circle". It is not a tenable moral standpoint. There are numerous articles on wikipedia that establish this uncomfortable fact beyond a doubt. To blindly hold to this comfortable fact-value distinction is not rational. We look for the better theory, not just the facts. And not just any facts. The facts that we need given our objectives. And that is not just a matter of opinion.

Remember who this is for

Just an observation on the little highlight here [1]. Not sure why it was a comment, but it is a valid point. Long term Wikipedians need to remember that the audience ought to be the general public, not died in the wool Wikipedians. Using phrases like POV fork do tend to make people who are less into it glaze over and turn off. Spenny 09:26, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, but isn't the purpose of the policy to establish terms, define them, and put them in the proper context? Not just terms as in: "phrases and words" but terms as in: "the established expectations and norms that have evolved through consensus and deliberation, and are sometimes expressed using 'shorthand' phrases for simplicity and precision"?
If both senses are *not* meant here, then where should terms (phrases) like POV fork be used? If the phrase is shorthand for: "an unacceptably biased duplication of material reflecting an attempt to reproduce the same content from multiple viewpoints" ... then does that mean the shorthand is only allowed to be used once in the policy, and nowhere else within the same policy? Does that mean that the phrase "POV" itself can only be used once as well? Same for "NPOV"? Where are new users supposed to go to learn all the "buzzwords" that they are certain to encounter outside the context of this policy (e.g., on talk pages and the like)?
It is a very common practice in the drafting of statutes, contracts and other formal instruments to establish crucial "shorthand" definitions that the reader is expected to understand on the basis of having read the whole document. (For example: The secondary guarantor of this loan, [hereinafter 'co-signer'] has certain rights and guarantees: 1) co-signer may blah blah blah; 2) co-signer may ... ). Is this common practice somehow not acceptable for WP core policy?
It is totally understandable to want to avoid unnecessary obfuscation and "insider phrases" as much as possible, but it is difficult to understand why the concept: POV fork is not important enough on the basis of the "shorthand" alone. It's not a difficult concept, and substituting an alternate phrase just to sound less "jargony" is probably *more* likely to confuse new users.
The term seems entirely appropriate and even necessary. Am I missing something here? dr.ef.tymac 11:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Not really, I just always enjoy our chats :) . I just thought that rather than leave the mini-debate hidden in the edit comments it was worth surfacing. It's my theme for today, policy for the public, not for Wikipedians, and I do find the jargon tiresome.
I do understand the need for working terms, but I guess I don't see Wikipedia as so unique that everything has to be spoken of in these terms. The wider point being that the jargon continually leaks out onto user pages and innocent bystanders are inflicted with this shorthand that WikiPeople know, love and understand and others are excluded by.
In the UK over many years there has been a campaign to recognise that public documents and contracts need to be written in plain English. Perhaps we could run the policy pages past Crystal Mark who give their logo Clarity approved by Plain English Campaign to a wide variety of documents. I like the comment: "Thanks to our lobbying in Europe, it is now impossible to enforce consumer contracts that are not in 'plain, intelligible language'." and I feel the same here. I know I would never get the mark, but I'd like to think it is something for Wiki to strive for. Spenny 12:14, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
You'll get no disagreement from me on the general benefits of "clarity" ... in fact, I even commend you for making this point out in the open, it's a good one.
Unfortunately, the "linguistic bathwater" is already well-saturated with the detritus of insider-jargon-speak, and it's not the kind of thing one can dispense with a single drop at a time. Either we (meaning all contributors to Wikipedia) agree to make a conscious and diligent effort to dump all the jargon, or we're just kidding ourselves.
Sure, it'd be nice to see 'POV fork', 'speedied', 'un-PRODded', 'xFD', 'AfD'd', 'MfD', 'CSD:G11' , and all the other little artifacts of WP-speak cleaned up or even done away with, but until there's a realistic chance of that happening, it would seem that second-best will have to do. dr.ef.tymac 14:03, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Notability refs removed?

It's been a while since I checked but the references I added to the notability pages have been removed. The idea that "tiny minority" views "do not belong in Wikipedia" does touch on issues of notability, not just neutrality, sicne what's so unneutral about including them in separate articles if verifiable information exists? Not every verifiable, unoriginal research viewpoint can be included in separate articles. Does this suggest then a new "notability" criterion for viewpoints, namely the number of adherents as opposed to verifiable coverage? Furthermore the statement "If you are able to prove something that no one or few currently believe, Wikipedia is not the place to premiere such a proof. " The number of believers has absolutely nothing to do with it. A whole bunch of people could believe it but the first publication still cannot be in Wikipedia! (Of course if enough do believe it it could get published easily by someone else somewhere else but that's not what I'm talking about -- I'm talking about the bar for inclusion itself, not circumstances arising from some situation). Similarly you can publish a proof and if absolutely nobody at all believes it yet it stirred up a lot of attention and third-party reporting (see WP:V, WP:N, WP:RS) it may still be able to be mentioned in Wikipedia (although the article should of course be written the right way obviously) and this must be reflected. mike4ty4 07:00, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Biases

I've slightly edited the scientific bias to add:

This can also include excessive favoring (or disfavoring) scientific orthodoxy if in doing so, notable viewpoints are no longer being treated neutrally.

Scientific bias has always been a problem since on the one hand, SPOV is not NPOV, but on the other hand it often should have great weight, and reducing that weight is often seen as creating a licence for minority theories, pseudoscience and WP:WEIGHT problems in general.

The above addition, I think, addresses that issue, by making clear that a bias for or against scientific orthodoxy becomes problematic when other notable viewpoints cease to be neutrally represented as a result.

Example - explaining that science doesn't support homeopathy is fine. But when that view extends to a failure to treat homeopathists views neutrally, that is, with due weight and fair tone, it's a problem. In the same way, to report phrenology with a strong bias towards that subject, without reporting the scientific viewpoint neutrally, is also an NPOV problem, this time an anti-scientific bias. FT2 (Talk | email) 10:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I dislike the formulation. "Scientific orthodoxy" is has a negative (and incorrect) connotation. "prevalent scientific opinion" might be better. --Stephan Schulz 11:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
That works just as well, I think. If thats a common understanding (I wasn't aware that way of describing it had a negative connotation as well) then fine :) On a side, what is the connotation it's acquired - I'm curious now :) FT2 (Talk | email) 11:29, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The term "Orthodoxy" is strongly associated with religion, and with doing things the (ritualistic) right way. It also suggests an unwillingness to change and to accept new ideas. Science is exactly the other way round - if it rejects ideas, it does not do so a-priory by dogma, but only based on evidence. --Stephan Schulz 11:59, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Ahh. I wasn't aware that meaning had acquired such a hold on the word. I had in mind the classical sense, orthodox (the present views of the establishment, in this case of science/scientists) as contrasted with controversial (minority/less well tested beliefs). So scientific orthodoxy would be that theories should not be assumed unless carefully tested, supernatural explanations should not be invoked, and so on.
If that's actually the case and the better expression, then it probably is better to change it. FT2 (Talk | email) 12:10, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a good addition (especially without "orthodoxy"). However, I suspect some people will be strongly against it because of the pseudoscience issue. Gnixon 15:49, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I've edited that in now. Question - "prevailing scientific opinion" or "prevalent scientific opinion"? FT2 (Talk | email) 18:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Big problem

There is a big problem growing in the area of "logic" and "mathematical logic." The problem extends to perhaps many dozens of articles, and more every day. There is a group of people in the very organized WikiProject Mathematics who are of the strong opinion that "mathematical logic" is not "logic." This has lead to numerous territory issues in the creation of WikiProject Logic, which is intended as an interdisciplinary subject connected to philosophy, and perhaps linguistics, computer science, etc.

Well these guys don't have to share anything if they don't want to, and they don't want to. They have as many people babysitting the wikipedia as they need to A) keep anti-logicist propaganda in the articles, B) have split project areas for logic stubs/math-logic stubs C) remove all the mathematical logicians from the logicians category D) remove several categories out from under the logic category (including mathematical logic) E) disintegrate numerous articles into conceptx (logic), and conceptx (mathematics) which are the same concept. The issues go on and on. It is a serious issue to the intellectual integrity of the wikipedia. I am not sure that this discussion page is where to go, but perhaps someone can suggest a way to address this. I have started an account for myself on meta wikipedia, but it is not clear when to go in there either. Please advise. Gregbard 21:59, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

See dispute resolution first? More eyeballs will often help. FT2 (Talk | email) 13:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Recent addition

The following was recently added:

The acronym NPOV does not mean "no points of view". The elimination of article content cannot be justified under this policy by simply labeling it "POV".

Whilst true, this feels rather like a sore thumb sticking out; the addition of a point to be used in debate.

Can other eyeballs help decide if this statement, added this way, is the most appropriate way to cover something like this? FT2 (Talk | email) 13:09, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I wrote that addition. I have had problems with other editors not understanding this policy and removing content by calling it "POV". The addition of these two sentences are integral for debating with editors who continue to pretend to not understand the NPOV policy. If you haven't met editors who have tried to by-pass NPOV by pretending to not understand it, then you are lucky.----DarkTea 13:14, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
"The elimination of article content cannot be justified under this policy by simply labeling it "POV"" is basically correct (imho...) but incomplete. (1) If the POV is that of some obscure minority (X considers that Christopher Colombus should have stayed at home, because...), the content may be eliminated from the main article because of relevance consideration (just direct it on a specialized article, this will usually kill the problem). (2) A POV may need to be presented for the information to be complete, but it has to be attributed in order to be neutralized and respect "N"-POV. EG: Even if the information is relevant on a nazi-related page, a formulation like "Jews should be killed because..." (obviously POV - and it hurts) is not acceptable, and must be turned into something lile "Nazi leaders thought that Jews should be killed because..." (or whatever - let's ignore the reference problem in that case). The style and vocabulary must be neutralized as well, by the way. Michelet-密是力-Me laisser un message 16:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I've met it, hence my comment "Whilst true". My concern is not that it's untrue. I don't have a problem with the factuality of it, but as it stands it looks like something added for an agenda, and to be used to provide carte blanche for any POV warrior looking for a justification why their pet view or cite or proposal can't be removed...... WP:NPOV has a few places where balance is needed in the phrasing and expression, so as not to provide ready support for non-neutral agendas. For me, this is one of those. Doesn't mean its 'wrong', just that added this way, it's a concern. FT2 (Talk | email) 20:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Article naming: recent edit by Ian covers exactly what I was commenting on

This is just a note to register support for the clarification just done by User:IanMSpencer. I recently flagged a subsection for copy editing but I never got around to it. Ian's edit provided precisely the modification that seemed necessary there. I add this just in case there was any misunderstanding about what I was referring to with the comment, which I've now removed. Thanks. dr.ef.tymac 00:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


Need an example or a referrer

Hello, all. I am a relative newbie on Wikipedia, and I have spotted a few articles which I believe should be tagged as not expressing a NPOV. Maybe only an administrator can do this, but otherwise, could someone please reveal to me the code that is used to insert those "notice" boxes? Thanks.--Surfaced 18:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The general strategy is to find an article that contains an example of what you want, and then to edit that article and copy that example to the article you wish to place it at. Then use "show preview" and make adjustments as needed. WAS 4.250 17:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Animal liberation POV

Please help decide a NPOV issue at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Challenges and issues of industrial agriculture. Thank you. WAS 4.250 17:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

It would be easier for new people to find the Neutral point of view article if there were a disambiguation page, where, if someone types the commonly seen "NPOV" into a search engine, he can more easily find the link to this site. Brian Pearson 14:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Wales quote

Am I alone in finding it distasteful when wikipedia policy pages quote the words of Jimbo Wales as gospel? Either our policies are justified on their own merits or they are not. I find it rather gauche. john k 15:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Question: emotional response / emotive language

Would it be a violation of NPOV principles for an article to be written in such a way that it provokes an emotional response in the reader? In other words, should emotive terms be avoided in the interests of neutrality? I have read through the article, the tutorial and the examples and I can't find any explicit statement on this... yet it seems self-evident that, just as wikipedia should not tell the reader what to think, nor should it tell them how to feel about a subject.

What do other editors think about this? Is there a place in this article (or tutorial/examples) for such an issue to be raised - or clarified? Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 19:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:WTA, WP:PEACOCK and WP:WEASEL try to lay out (through examples) what is considered to be encyclopedic tone, editorializing etc. Is this what you are looking for ? Abecedare 20:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll give them a good read and get back to you. Thanks for the links! Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 21:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Nothing :-( Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 02:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean something like this?:

  • The atomic bombing of Hiroshima annihilated thousands of women and children.

compared to:

  • The atomic bombing of Hiroshima killed thousands of people.

Anynobody 04:32, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Something like that, yes. The background to my request is that I've been debating the inclusion of abortion photos and I feel that the user who wants to include them intends that they should provoke an emotional response. I argued that inclusion of emotive images would not be neutral - that's always been my understanding of NPOV - but after being challenged on this, I can't find anything concrete on the subject. Setting aside the content dispute for the moment, I'm hoping that somewhere in all the NPOV-related articles there is a clarification on this topic (or a place for one). Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 05:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Tough issue, I think you are most likely correct about the motivation of the person wanting to add said photos. On the other hand it seems like a justifiable encyclopedic desire to want some kind of illustration.

What's the source? If it's a pro-life group's photos they use in protests I'd say skip it because those pictures have been picked because they look the "saddest". A scientific, academic or governmental picture is less likely to be chosen for such reasons.

I also suspect that guidance on this issue can be obtained by looking at another where "sad" photos are involved: Animal testing. Anynobody 06:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC) (Not to sound pompous, I realize you were asking if WP:NPOV says anything, but I've searched for similar specifics that just aren't there.) Anynobody 06:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


The way I have handled this on another article with strong viewpoints, was, the lead photo follows Wikipedia's usual style. It's interesting, relevant, and so on - but not chosen to make a specific point or push a specific side.
Other photos, chosen to illustrate the range of the topic (with balance), then illustrate the body of the article, or if there are several and the aim is not to make a point with any, in a gallery at the end. This worked very well, allowing the more one-sided photos space, balancing them, and not implying a specific viewpoint. Try it, if able? FT2 (Talk | email) 08:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I think perhaps I've been trying to hard to find something that applies specifically to the case in point. On reflection, this sentence is probably all that's needed: The neutral point of view is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject..
Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful comments. Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 01:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Minority view and content fork

I recently undid a revision to the text of this policy [2].

The rationale for my action is as follows:

  • The clarification changed the first sentence without (apparently) changing the substantive meaning. Because the stability of the wording in this policy is a legitimate goal, the change did not seem warranted;
  • The clarification specified that "content forks" or "POV forking" is no more legitimate for "minority view" articles than for any other kind of article. Although this makes practical sense, there is no reason to conclude that the restrictions against "POV forks" should not be considered applicable to all WP content, regardless of whether it is a "minority view" article or not; and
  • The balance of the changes did not seem to warrant a shift in wording, in light of the interests of clarity, stability and predictability for this core policy.

If you find fault with this rationale, or wish to further clarify the change and explain why it was warranted, please feel free to do so here on the discussion page. Thanks for your consideration. dr.ef.tymac 02:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


The rationale for the change that was reverted is as follows:

  • The original wording looked very much like supporting pov forks. It made no mention of them and appeared to contradict that other part of the policy.
  • The change was not intended to alter the meaning (and apparently per the comment above it did not) but only to clarify it.
  • Clarity should not be sacrificed for stability
  • It is clear that there is a desire and perhaps a need for articles that reflect minority views. However, that there is a need for such articles should not automatically create an easy exception to the POV Fork Rule.
  • The balance of the changes was not so severe as to injure any prior intent, and so preserved the stability of the intent of the policy, but it improved the clarity of its meaning and predictability for this core policy.

Incidentally, changes get made fairly often without any such objection, including the original change to this policy a few months ago that resulted in the wording that I clarified. If the meaning did not change but there is more clarity and definition that special focus articles are not excuses for POV Forks, that is an improvement and should not be objected to.--Blue Tie 04:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't actually feel either quite hit the spot. The first sentence of the original that minority views "can receive attention" or the revised version (an improvement) that stated some pages deal with "inherently" minority views. I'd be more direct, with something on these lines:
  1. "Notable minority viewpoints which are expanded upon in their own articles should take care to place their topic within the balanced context of the wider subject, and make appropriate reference to majority and other notable viewpoints. A reader should be able to gain a fair understanding of the weight or prominence of a viewpoint, as part of the information contained in its article."
    or
  2. "Notable minority viewpoints which are expanded upon in separate articles should take care to apply this policy to the separate article created. NPOV concerns about such articles include placing their topic within the balanced context of the wider subject, and make appropriate reference to majority and other notable viewpoints. A reader should be able to gain a fair understanding of the weight or prominence of a viewpoint within its context, as part of the information contained in its article."
That for me is more to the point of this section. FT2 (Talk | email) 08:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
To Blue Tie: First, let's start off with the areas where you and I are apparently in complete agreement: 1) Clarity should not be sacrificed for stability (agreed). In fact, I don't think it should be sacrificed at all; 2) changes get made fairly often without any such objection (also agreed). In fact I myself have made or proposed such changes, but I've also reverted or opposed such changes; individual merits get evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
Second, if I put you off with the rationale I stated (or the way I stated it) that was by no means my intent. Please do not misconstrue my response as general opposition to constructive changes to WP:NPOV. When I mentioned "stability" as an interest, it was not a "catch-all" excuse for opposing changes, it was a specific reaction to the wording change that was proposed here.
For example, the change would have affected the parallel reference to wording that has been in this policy since this very early revision. (click the link and search for the words "specifically devoted to" to see what I mean).
I'm pretty sure this text gets cited quite frequently, because it is reasonably clear and it's been around for a while. If it's a clarification we propose, it seems pretty important that we all can agree it's indeed a much-needed clarification, and an obvious improvement.
Respectfully, I would not have reverted if I felt that this specific change clearly represented an improvement. It's really just that simple.
Having said all that, if you want to discuss specifics, and propose specific changes, let's do that. One question I have is, what specifically about the text do you consider as implicitly condoning POV forks? dr.ef.tymac 09:35, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
To FT2 and Blue Tie: I'm not quite sure I see a need for clarification here in the first place, perhaps you can elaborate a bit. So far, it seems to me the basic message is pretty clear:
   Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them.
   
   (e.g., if you want to write about "Flat Earth" in great detail, do it in the article 
   "Flat Earth" and not the article "Earth").

   A POV fork is an attempt to evade NPOV policy by creating a new article about a certain 
   subject that is already treated in an article.
   
   (e.g., if you want to write about good and bad aspects of "Earth", do it in the article 
   "Earth", and don't create separate stand-alone articles Earth (good aspects) and