Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view/Archive 30

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Archive 30


Contents

"POV warrior" slur

I've seen this term used on Wikipedia a number of times. It needs to stop as it violates both WP:AGF and, more seriously, WP:NPA. Jinxmchue 22:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It certainly can be. It can also be a useful description of an all-too-common behavioral pattern. As an aside, WP:AGF starts at home, and something like this hardly puts one in a position to lecture on AGF. MastCell Talk 22:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Boy, that SPADE nonsense sure has come into vogue lately as a way to excuse violations of AGF and NPA. As for "something like this," I've seen nothing to dissuade me from believing those things, particularly in regards to the article about D. James Kennedy. It's all still going on. Jinxmchue 03:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
SPADE is not a policy. WP:NPA is.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:27, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Should we create a NPOV noticeboard?

See this thread on VP(P) and comment. Thank you, -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Getting sick of ethnic slurs

What are the appropriate responses to ethnic slurs in Wikipedia policy names, procedures, etc.? Jacob Haller 20:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:CIV, WP:NPA.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  18:25, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Those only deal with slurs by one editor against another editor, not slurs embedded in policy. Jacob Haller 19:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like you're about to post a link to something specific... ...? Sheffield Steeltalkstalk 17:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
WP:Vandalism, Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism (sic), etc. Jacob Haller 18:37, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we can also expect some Swedes to complain about our use of the word "troll". I think the problem isn't Wikipedia so much as the English language. Trying to find a way forward, was there an alternative term you had in mind? Sheffield Steeltalkstalk 19:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Usually, I type "revert trashing" and the like, but I've no general suggestion. I suppose the systemic bias wikiproject might be a better place to address this. Jacob Haller 22:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is a real life example

At the talk page of the article Israel & the UN, I ask a question about the limit of the NPOV policy when dealing with real life. In brief, Where is the line between a lie and an opinion? Emmanuelm 18:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

"There's no such thing as objectivity"

As long as you follow this philosophy, nothing on Wikipedia will ever be able to be taken seriously. This is why the vast majority of schools do not allow students to cite Wikipedia as one of their resources, and why many PoV balance issues arise. It is not that objectivity does not exist, it is that the current policies do not allow for objectivity.--69.252.221.116 10:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree! And I want add that, at WP, objectivity is equated with neutrality. This is untrue; Neutrality is the objectivity of the feeble mind. Emmanuelm 13:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. The reason WP is not taken seriously as a source is that it is metaphorically a very large public toilet wall, and so many contributors fail to grasp that just because anyone can edit, it doesn't mean that they should.
In what way do current policies prohibit or prevent objectivity? Sheffield Steeltalkstalk 17:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Fair point. I posted my first comment [ever] on the discussion page for American Football (Oct 08/07) because apparently unlike any other similar page on Wikipedia, the History section is right at the bottom of the page. (This has become a bee in my bonnet as it seems to show, in a small way, the nature of editors on this site).
I noted that the article's 'burial' was probably due to it's assertion that America's national sport was actually developed from the British game of Rugby. Oooh painful!!
Well from the two replies that have been posted, the first criticized me for not being polite?? And that the quality of article's writing (not the content) may have resulted in it's position on the page. It was then suggested that I should make a request for the article to be moved. C'mon. Cap, in hand , maybe?
The second reply said that they didn't care what other pages have done (ie so Wikipedia doesn't have an acceptable style, unless it's acceptable to them) plus that the whole History article was, at the moment, poorly conceived as it was, for all intense and purposes, a place where colleges could 'brag' about their place in American Football History.
So if you can't even have editors sticking to basic principles on page layout then from the thin-end-of-the-wedge position we get to point that Wikipedia is just a collection of facts, opinions amd theories that are there only at the sole discretion of the editors. In both posts there was no suggestion that the article could be improved so that it could be moved to its rightful position as first section on the page. As there is no change, does that mean there is no problem? Or does NPOV mean antipathy too?
Philosophically speaking if Wikipedia is about everybody having a right to edit, how come there is so much wrong with it?? Just read the discussion pages!!!

LOL —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.106.235 (talk) 10:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Please provide us a list of perfect WP articles

This is a call to all Grand Wikis : please provide us with a list of articles that you judge to be orthodox by all WP policies. Emmanuelm 13:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Featured articles and Wikipedia:Good articles. --Elonka 23:08, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Archive

This page is getting ridiculously long... What is the archive policy of this page? It seems that at some point it was two months per archive, but that was done 6 months ago. Should we rather consider User:MiszaBot II for this task? A useful setting might be discussions older than a month. G.A.S 09:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I went ahead and archived manually for now, and set up an archiving bot. There was a problem before where the talkarchives were using non-standard names (Archive 026 instead of Archive 26), but I've switched numbering systems, so hopefully it'll work now.  :) --Elonka 21:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Question about NPOV

Isn't it impossible to have a neutral point of view because a neutral point of view is a point of view. Monobi 20:53, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

No. Neutral point of view ≠ No point of view. G.A.S 06:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Bias

The section on bias could be confusing in some instances. For example I've been involved with editing L. Ron Hubbard, mentions of him in WP:RS like Time magazine or the Los Angeles Times paint an overall image of a mentally disturbed power freak out for money.

Some might argue that RS about Hubbard are biased against both him and the religion he created.

They are:
1. Wrong

A. Reporting critical material about the creator of a religion is not a direct criticism of the creation. Thus no bias against the religion is implied.
B. If a source is considered reliable enough to be in the article, it is not biased.
C. A source with no clear motive to defame someone, and evidence exists to prove its assertions, is not biased it is simply critical.
D.-Z. Other

2. Right

A. The sources have an agenda based on a pre-conceived notion that he was a shady character, since they more or less say so they must also be biased.
B.-Z. Other

3. Right about: (A., B., C., etc) Wrong about: ()
Anynobody 03:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe the WP:NPOV policy makes any claim that "reliable sources" are unbiased or otherwise likely to be true. Reliable sources merely help ensure that that the views expressed are significant. Since bias cannot be determined definitively unless one already knows the truth, whether significant views are biased or not and which ones are is for the reader, not Wikipedia, to determine. Best, --Shirahadasha 22:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion about particular attribution

I encourage Wikipedians who watch this page to comment about a new proposal at Wikipedia talk:Fringe theories#Appeal to particular attribution. Thanks ScienceApologist 17:28, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Infobox policy

There seems to be a significant lack in policy statements on what is an appropriate infobox. WP:IB and WP:IBT are entirely practical (how to create an infobox and where to find them). The process at Wikipedia:List of infoboxes/Proposed appears to be entirely for informational purposes, without any actual review required to set an infobox up (not that there necessarily should be). WP:TFD mostly focuses on practical issues as well (is it used? does it have a logical format?), but does mention the requirement that an infobox must "satisfy NPOV." I think we need a lot more clarity on what that means for an infobox, and perhaps adding a brief section to the NPOV page would be appropriate.

Consider an infobox that lists a person or organization under a certain category, and that there is significant controversy over whether that identification is fair and/or accurate. What is the standard? In an article, balance between POVs can be achieved by citing the opinions of various RSs and their reasons for placing or not placing that entity in that category. But an infobox is not capable of such nuance. Is such a listing in an infobox ipso facto a claim of consensus? Or would another rubric be more appropriate? --BlueMoonlet 06:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

P.S. If this is not the proper venue for this discussion, please feel free to suggest a better one. Thanks. --BlueMoonlet 06:22, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I suspect that this is indeed not the venue, if this post stagnates much longer you might consider either: Wikipedia:WikiProject Infoboxes or the Wikipedia:Village pump. Hope this helps. Anynobody 04:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I've placed notices at both those locations, and also put up an RfC. --BlueMoonlet 21:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

This is indeed a very real problem. I don't think there's any explicit policy or guideline so far, and I've sometimes had the impression designers of infoboxes haven't given the problem much thought in some cases. For some items, such as statistical figures, it's become common to include footnotes in infoboxes, but even that can be problematic (if you have five different estimates for the population size of some ethnic group, which of them are you going to quote?). My experience is that among the most bitter edit-wars, a disproportionately high number are caused by infoboxes. In such cases I always try to persuade the parties to simply leave the information out from the box and treat it in the text only. People can get incredibly fixated on entries in infoboxes. In the eyes of many users, the special visual prominence a piece of information gets by being placed in the box apparently constitutes a special form of endorsement. This percieved hightened degree of importance, and the lack of nuance in sourcing and hedging, are problems that can seriously compound each other. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

My notion is that, for factual disputes (i.e. birthdates), there are absolutely no restrictions on using citations in infoboxes; Super Smash Bros. Brawl has seven, for instance. If the dispute relates to something else, there are a number of options: leave the field blank (if there are no sources), find some more-neutral language (i.e. compromise), or simply put "disputed" if the dispute is described and sourced in the article. If sources disagree as to some number, put it the high and low and cite 'em, such as in Battle of Yarmouk. Nifboy 05:42, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Agree, all of this can be viable solutions, case-by-case. I'd only be reluctant about the "put disputed into the box" solution - there are many cases where a dispute or uncertainty exists and needs to be treated, but where the "disputed" mark in the box might be perceived as itself giving undue weight to the dispute (or to that party of the dispute that challenges what others perceive as the mainstream view.) Another great opportunity for edit-warring.
Another related problem that I've encountered many times is that infobox designers (especially with older infoboxes, before "#if" constructs became technically easy) made too many fields obligatory. Basically, every infobox field where only the slightest chance exist that an entry might become contentious should always be optional. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Then I would ask someone to fix the template. I know {{infobox Person}} doesn't have any default fields. Nifboy 13:55, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

POV in capitalization?

The correct adjectival form referring to the "Quran" is "Quranic". The correct proper adjective for "Veda" is "Vedic". The correct form for "Talmud" is "Talmudic". This is the same as all proper adjectives in English, that are always capitalized, eg. "Lithuanian", "Australian", etc. However, a number of editors have now arisen insisting that the accompanying proper adjective for "Bible" should be "biblical" (small b) as a special exception, and only because they say certain style manuals they claim to be authoritative, ought to trump the notion of maintaining a neutral, even-handed appearance, without any other explanation or rationale being required. (Of course there are many other authorites that allow 'Biblical' with a capital B, but these, they claim, are somehow irrelevant.) The issue, including how it pertains to neutrality, is now being discussed at an RFC at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Bible, please comment there. Til Eulenspiegel 17:27, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Undue Weight -- Poor Example

This is a silly and inept example. The "view" of the world as flat is not a "view" at all, but rather a departation from fact. The world is provably spherical and as such there is no "view" to be reasonably had on the subject. Instead, a classical example should be given, one of a subject notable for not having ascertainable truths, forcing it to be comprised of views instead (i.e. the existence of God).74.12.74.247 12:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

"The most popular band"

So what do we do when a reliable source discussing a group calls them the most popular band of the 90's?

  • In article as a direct statement, i.e. So-and-so was the most popular band of the 90's. with the source cited.
  • Written with a qualifier (being careful of WP:WEASEL of course) as So-and-so is considered one of the most popular...
  • Directly quoted, to denote that it is the words of a particular journalist/source, i.e. So-and-so is considered "one of the most popular bands of the 90's..."

Tarc 16:29, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Cherry picking sources and undue weight

I don't know anything about the late Sri Chinmoy (died Oct. 11) but was struck by the characterization of him in the lead of his Wikipedia article as being "quirky" and wondered if it was fair. Yes, this is sourced to the AP obit, which referred to him as quirky, so it's a reliable source. But if you do a search in Google News for the past month and add that total to a search on Google News Archives, you'll find that there have been 1,665 articles that mention Chinmoy. If you do a search on "Chinmoy quirky," Google returns a single result -- the obit that's cited in the lead of the article. Is it a violation of undue weight to characterize Chinmoy as "quirky" in the lead of this article? Thanks.

(I ask this not because I'm interested in editing that article but simply to get a better understanding of undue weight, which I feel may be widely violated in Wikipedia.) TimidGuy 15:18, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem of cherry-picking sources is unfortunately a common one on Wikipedia. With thousands of new articles sprouting up each day, there's really no review process that covers of all of them, so it's simply a case that it's up to individual editors who may be reading a particular article to decide if they wish to challenge the information or not. You're right that since there's a reliable source, the term is okay, but if you feel that it's excessive, you could tone it down, remove it, or clarify the source, for example saying, "described as 'quirky' in his AP obituary". If no one disagrees with your edit, then fine, we have a new consensus.  :) If someone disagrees, then bring it up on the talkpage and try to find a wording that's agreeable to all editors working on the article. :) See also Wikipedia:Consensus. --Elonka 16:36, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm involved in a similar situation, and I think I understand what you're asking. The answer (in my opinion)is: Maybe, depending on a couple of things. Of the 1,665 articles that mention Chinmoy, how many are from reliable sites? Of those that are, they should do more than mention him. For example in my situation the subject is L. Ron Hubbard and his personality. Since most RS about his biography don't discuss him in a very positive manner, naturally this concerns Scientologists, to whom he was the greatest man ever. When pointing to examples of RS supporting his/their claim that Hubbard was a humanitarian they have shown a tendency to cite an article from a well known paper's entertainment/celebrity section that is actually about Tom Cruise or a new Scientology center somewhere which refers to Hubbard once as an "author/humanitarian".
If there are articles from RSs about this person among the 1600+ links you found then the sources on Sri Chinmoy are incomplete. On the other hand if none of them do meet Wikipedia standards, the sources we have are the best that can be done and as such the article is NPOV. (Hope this made sense) Anynobody 05:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks much, Elonka and Anynobody, for your helpful responses. I realize now that there was a flaw in my logic regarding the Chinmoy example. It could well be that every one of those articles characterized him as quirky but only one chose to use that particular word. My methodology would only work for a more precise and unique term. So the example may not illustrate the issue with NPOV that concerns me. Anynobody, have you been able to successfully argue that an article that just mentions a subject in passing isn't necessarily a reliable source for that subject? It seems like you both agree that a Wikipedia article should give weight according to the preponderance of sources.

I saw above there was discussion of an NPOV Noticeboard. Did anything come of that? TimidGuy 11:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I actually haven't had to initiate that argument (against passing mentions) myself but it does appear to have been effective. (Had there been argument I'd of certainly made some points about why it just makes sense.) You are correct in assessing my view on sources, it's the best way to ensure individual POVs aren't inserted.
I don't think anything has happened in regard to a NPOV board. Personally, though I think it's a good idea, in practice I doubt it'll do much good because a lot of people, including some admins, don't understand just what NPOV means. Also my experiences with similar noticeboards like WP:COIN have proven fruitless. Anynobody 22:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Editing Articles On Where you Work At

I have heard of cases where cited sources get deleted becasue they are edited by someone who works at the place the article is about like Quik Trip or Burger King. I know that editing articles about Companies that you own, Yourself (non UserPage), Your own Band, ETC are believed to be in Violation of NPOV. But Are Editing Articles on where your work or had worked at a violation of Wikipedia Policy (Even if properly cited) and that anything that is believed to be done by that person should be removed from the article now matter how much it belongs? I didn't see anything about editing Articles for Companies you own or where you work at in the FAQ. Sawblade05 (talk to me | my wiki life) 08:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

This is covered in Wikipedia's Conflict of Interest policy. In my reading of it, and in following the discussions, it's okay to edit an article if you are employed by a company. And content shouldn't be deleted just because it's been added by an employee. But there are caveats: an employee must be very cautious to observe policies and guidelines, and would ideally make suggestions on the Talk page that are then implemented by a neutral editor. In practice, it simply doesn't make sense, and doesn't help Wikipedia grow, if all employees are barred from contributing. TimidGuy 19:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Which one has the precedence???

After reading

Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikipedia principle. According to Jimmy Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable."[1]

looks like that the fifth pillar of Wikipedia

Wikipedia does not have firm rules besides the five principles outlined here. Be bold in editing, moving, and modifying articles, because perfection is a goal and not a requirement. As all previous versions of articles are kept, content won't be irrevocably destroyed by an editor's mistake. So don't worry about messing up.

is not valid anymore. The above sounds like a strong rule.

--Smerdyakoff 23:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no conflict at all... All of our core policies (including NPOV) are discussed in the first pillar. So NPOV is falls within the statement "Wikipedia does not have firm rules besides the five principles outlined here". Blueboar 14:48, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

An insightful discussion of the NPOV

From Wikipedia:Press_coverage

Basing on an example from the editing of "Wal-Mart", the article carries out an insightful discussion of the NPOV issues and the importance of the contextual frame in which "neutral" facts are presented in judging the neutrality.
"...[B]oth sentences pass the undisputed fact test. But they also violate the logic of Wikipedia's rule: undisputed facts equal neutrality which leads to truth."

--Philip Baird Shearer 12:53, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Catholicism and Freemasonry

I need a neutral party who understands the NPOV policy to look at and comment on the above linked article, and to possibly act as a mediator. The article is contentious... it is also full of half substantiated POV "accusations" and "rebuttals". The article has been tagged for being POV for a long time. I have been calling for a complete re-write of the article for over a year now, attempting to find a POV balance. I am not getting much support for this at the article. I could really use some back up. I am posting a similar request at WP:NOR, since there are issues with that as well... if you know both policies, even better. Thanks in advance Blueboar 01:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I know a little about the subject from both the Catholic and Masonic perspective, being the former and studying the latter rather extensively. As already stated on the Wikipedia talk:No original research#Catholicism and Freemasonry page, I think that there may well be a lot of biased material in the article, but that bias to a degree reflects the biases which seem to have been prevalent in society for a great deal of the time discussed. That doesn't mean that those biases should be declared as objective, but it does mean that the content probably in general meets Verifiability and RS standards. What I think the main problem might be is WP:Undue weight, and I'm not right now sure enough about the subject to know all the evidence on the Freemasonry side of the argument to add what should be added, but I think that most of the content, with a few exceptions I noted on the page linked to, probably does at least meet Verifiability and RS requirements. I don't think the article is remotely NPOV, but making it so would require adding material from the Masonic "side of the argument", which I don't myself have ready access to right now. John Carter 19:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Someone Please Direct Me

In the Carmax article, this phrase exists: "Although not unique to CarMax, these features are still interesting." While browsing Wikipedia, I often see this type of phrase. Wouldn't this not be a neutral point of view? What may be "interesting" to one may not be interesting to someone else. Please guide me in the right direction and if there is a section specifically on this type of phrase. Thanks! PGT.Endurance 03:22, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

That's covered under WP:WTA#Ironically.2C_amusingly.2C_unfortunately.2C_interestingly.2C_etc_.5BWords_which_editorialize.5D. Sheffield Steeltalkstalk 16:26, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


The responsibilities of one who adds a dispute tag vs. FUD attack or Trolling

I would like to see a section on this page about the responsibilities of one who inserts a "The neutrality of this article is disputed" tag into an article.

One might launch a FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) attack on Wikipedia by sprinkling various forms of dispute tags in a multitude of articles -- without giving a reason for adding the tags. A visitor who sees a "dispute" message at the top of the article may not ask _why_ there is a dispute. They might just move on to a source which isn't proclaiming doubt about its own contents.

Or, if not engaging in a FUD attack, an editor might merely be "trolling": Trying to get attention by "forcing" others into action at their "command".

A NPOV-dispute tag was recently added to an article on my watch list.

The editor who added the tag has no history of editing the article in question.

Their tag said "Please see the discussion on the talk page." There was no discussion on the talk page about whatever they were disputing.

Their tag said "Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved." What dispute? By what measure might it be "resolved"? Who decides when it is "resolved"?

It occurs to me that if one has a problem with the neutrality of a statement, their first action might be to fix it or to question it on the article's talk page -- not to drop seeds of doubt on the whole article.

If one does drop a NPOV-dispute tag, it seems that there would be:

  • A commitment to participate in correcting the "problem"
  • A proposal stating what is necessary to achieve a NPOV

If one takes it upon themselves to drop a NPOV-dispute (or other doubt-inspiring) tag in an article, what are their responsibilities before or after doing so? --Ac44ck 17:16, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Sorry, I didn't see the thread at first. Here is the one I put on your talk page:
Hi! If you are talking about J. Vernon McGee, I did post it on the article page (as you requested) [1] where you requested I do so. Here:[2][3]

Mattisse 01:56, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

  • I don't understand what your complaints about trolling are. I tagged 12 articles. So what? Were they all your articles? If so, I truly did not realize it so it was an honest mistake. Please assume good faith also. Tagging is considered to be a contribution to Wikipedia by inspiring editors to improve articles. I tag my own articles often. If it is a good article I want to notify readers what is not verified. Also, sometimes another editor can supply the missing source material. I am very sorry you are so upset. Sincerely, Mattisse 02:06, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I don't know what FUD is, as I have not come upon the term before. Mattisse 02:06, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't find where you posted so I will post on AN/I

I've looked for your post to respond there but can not find it. Sorry! Mattisse 01:52, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Found it and replied above. Mattisse 02:07, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

"Criticism" and its legitimacy

I have two questions:

  • First, does the term criticism imply legitimacy? For example, the Criticism of Islam article says "Islam is criticised for not being moral". Does this mean that indeed Islam is not moral, and critics are simply making the observation? Or does it mean that according to the critics, Islam is not moral?
  • Secondly, is it neutral to say that a particular religion is a "false religion" or an "immoral religion". Or is it neutral for wikipedia to portray an opinion that accuses a religion of being "false" as factual and accurate?

Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions.Bless sins (talk) 18:06, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

While notable criticism definitely belongs in religion articles, some care regarding neutral terminology and portrayal is needed. A good approach would be simply to attribute the criticism directly to the critics in an unambiguous way, e.g. "Critics such as [specify] claim that 'Islam is immoral' [citation needed]". Although direct quotes of a short phrase might be the best way to clarify that this is not Wikipedia's opinion, a paraphrase is also possible as long as any critical claim is [[WP:|attributed]] to identified critics and is not made in Wikipedia's narrative voice. Wikipedia cannot portray any opinion on religous matters -- good or bad, true or false, moral or immoral -- as factual and accurate. The only relevant facts are whether an opinion is notable ("significant" per the WP:NPOV policy), accurately described and attributed, and whether it is given appropriate weight. These are the facts to be sourced. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 19:14, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Sneaky land claims

I've noticed that some articles refer to "the ancestral fatherland of the XXX nation" or similar phrases, sometimes in the article title. This tends to suggest ownership by the XXX ethnic group. I can't find any clear policy against this. Fourtildas (talk) 07:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOPOV shortcut only adds to confusion

I would like to change the name of the default shortcut here to WP:YESPOV. The current shortcut goes to a section that explains that the idea of "no pov" is incorrect. As so many editors seem so confused by this concept to begin with, I don't think putting forth WP:NOPOV as a "nickname" helps matters. -- Kendrick7talk 19:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I went ahead and made the change. -- Kendrick7talk 22:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

What is a "tiny minority?"

I am involved in a debate as to whether a criticism-- one published as an op-ed in two generally notable publications (The Jerusalem Post and The American Spectator)-- deserves mention in a proposed criticism section for a BLP. (see Gayatri Spivak) Other editors have complained that the criticism has not received serious attention in academic circles, and I'm sure they're right. However, I think all criticism in the public sphere is relevant to a person's notability, but I'm not sure where the "tiny minority" threshold for inclusion/non-inclusion is to be drawn. Would double-publication of the criticism as an op-ed alone be enough to bring it out of the tiny minority category? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JrFace (talk • contribs) 12:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like it would. But I don't know the particulars. TimidGuy 19:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Another case

Should sources acknowledged as extremists be given space on articles, even though they are popular?

For example, on the article Judaism, should The Protocols of the Elders of Zion be given some space, possibly under the header "Criticism of Judaism"? The publication is widely acknowledged as extremist and antisemitic.

Another example: on the article Islam, should The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion be given some space, possibly under the header "Criticism of Islam"? The publication and the author are acknowledged as extremist and Islamophobic.Bless sins 20:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference: the Protocols are clearly proven to be a forgery, while the Islamocritical book mentioned is an utterance of an opinion. Also, the characterisation of the author is controversial so this should not be a basis for exclusion. Str1977 (talk) 21:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
One may replace The Protocols of the Elders of Zion with another book acknowledged as antisemitic. Secondly there are a lot of scholars who believe that "The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion" is also false, not to mention an example of hate-speech. Also, please note that "threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Thus we care more about verifiability than the truth here.Bless sins 01:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
BTW, are you seriously suggesting that wikipedia should state that Islam is considered to be "the World's Most Intolerant Religion"?Bless sins 01:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
You are not comprehending what "forgery" and "false" means. The Protocols are proven to have been forgered by a Russian secret agent to discredit the Jews. Are you suggesting that Mr Spencer made anything of what he writes up. I am granting you that he has an unfavourable opinion on Islam but that's not quite the same. "Hate speech" is anyway a questionable concept. "Not truth but verifiability" is probably the most abused sentence here on WP. Yes, truth does matter. But even though, Spencer's book is clearly verifiable. I do not care much for that book but your attempts to remove anything that's critical of Islam is scandalous. Str1977 (talk) 10:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
SO you are saying that Mr. Spencer's book is true? Otherwise I don't understand your argument.Bless sins 04:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I am not saying anything about Spencer's book beyond what I wrote: he didn't make things up. Your reply is ample evidence of your inability to separate his POV from his editing. And that is the one that lectured me about how "truth" was unimportant. Str1977 (talk) 09:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Spencer's book is presumably truly his own book. The Protocols were held up to be something they were NOT. They were held up as a secret cabal document, and this was later roundly discredited. Epthorn (talk) 12:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Creation Myth vs. Origin Belief

Currently, what I would consider to be the Creation Myth article, has the name "Origin Belief"

It's my understanding that one is actually used in conversation and academic channels, while the other is a semantic treatment of the term. A quick google search will reveal which term is more commonly used.

People who hold supernatural beliefs about the origins of the world are offended by the term "myth" which they believe denotes "false". But the dictionary definition of "myth" does not carry this connotation, nor does the term when used academically. To be fair, I think the word does sometimes carry this connotation in colloquial speech.

On the other hand, anyone searching for the article is going to be looking for "Creation Myth" not "Origin Belief". This is because "Origin Belief" is an invented term designed to assuage people's concern over the word "myth".

My first instinct is that it should be reverted to "Creation Myth" as any encyclopedia should be a collection of facts, and not some sort of blueprint for a more PC world. However, upon reading this article, it's unclear to me whether this is the desire of wikipedia or not.

Basically I'm looking for guidance here. I will ultimately defer to the conventions of wikipedia, even if I disagree with them.

66.152.196.34 19:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

"It should be _reverted_" to the name that it had _when_? When did the article first start to have its current name?
The 16:49, 8 Apr 2005 post on the article's talk page indicates that the article was renamed in some way around that time. Was it changed from "Creation Myth" then? If so, reverting it at this point seems late to me because it appears that:
  • 1. There was discussion about this issue on the talk page before the renaming happened.
  • 2. Others haven't reverted it the 2+ years since it was given the current name.
  • 3. The 15:31, 30 October 2007 post on the article's talk page hasn't rallied support for renaming the article.
And Creation myth redirects there. --Ac44ck (talk) 20:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

What is a "tiny minority?"

I am involved in a debate as to whether a criticism-- one published as an op-ed in two generally notable publications (The Jerusalem Post and The American Spectator)-- deserves mention in a proposed criticism section for a BLP. (see Gayatri Spivak) Other editors have complained that the criticism has not received serious attention in academic circles, and I'm sure they're right. However, I think all criticism in the public sphere is relevant to a person's notability, but I'm not sure where the "tiny minority" threshold for inclusion/non-inclusion is to be drawn. Would double-publication of the criticism as an op-ed alone be enough to bring it out of the tiny minority category? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JrFace (talk • contribs) 12:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like it would. But I don't know the particulars. TimidGuy 19:27, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Another case

Should sources acknowledged as extremists be given space on articles, even though they are popular?

For example, on the article Judaism, should The Protocols of the Elders of Zion be given some space, possibly under the header "Criticism of Judaism"? The publication is widely acknowledged as extremist and antisemitic.

Another example: on the article Islam, should The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion be given some space, possibly under the header "Criticism of Islam"? The publication and the author are acknowledged as extremist and Islamophobic.Bless sins 20:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference: the Protocols are clearly proven to be a forgery, while the Islamocritical book mentioned is an utterance of an opinion. Also, the characterisation of the author is controversial so this should not be a basis for exclusion. Str1977 (talk) 21:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
One may replace The Protocols of the Elders of Zion with another book acknowledged as antisemitic. Secondly there are a lot of scholars who believe that "The Truth About Muhammad: Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion" is also false, not to mention an example of hate-speech. Also, please note that "threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Thus we care more about verifiability than the truth here.Bless sins 01:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
BTW, are you seriously suggesting that wikipedia should state that Islam is considered to be "the World's Most Intolerant Religion"?Bless sins 01:23, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
You are not comprehending what "forgery" and "false" means. The Protocols are proven to have been forgered by a Russian secret agent to discredit the Jews. Are you suggesting that Mr Spencer made anything of what he writes up. I am granting you that he has an unfavourable opinion on Islam but that's not quite the same. "Hate speech" is anyway a questionable concept. "Not truth but verifiability" is probably the most abused sentence here on WP. Yes, truth does matter. But even though, Spencer's book is clearly verifiable. I do not care much for that book but your attempts to remove anything that's critical of Islam is scandalous. Str1977 (talk) 10:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
SO you are saying that Mr. Spencer's book is true? Otherwise I don't understand your argument.Bless sins 04:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I am not saying anything about Spencer's book beyond what I wrote: he didn't make things up. Your reply is ample evidence of your inability to separate his POV from his editing. And that is the one that lectured me about how "truth" was unimportant. Str1977 (talk) 09:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Mr. Spencer's book is presumably truly his own book. The Protocols were held up to be something they were NOT. They were held up as a secret cabal document, and this was later roundly discredited. Epthorn (talk) 12:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Creation Myth vs. Origin Belief

Currently, what I would consider to be the Creation Myth article, has the name "Origin Belief"

It's my understanding that one is actually used in conversation and academic channels, while the other is a semantic treatment of the term. A quick google search will reveal which term is more commonly used.

People who hold supernatural beliefs about the origins of the world are offended by the term "myth" which they believe denotes "false". But the dictionary definition of "myth" does not carry this connotation, nor does the term when used academically. To be fair, I think the word does sometimes carry this connotation in colloquial speech.

On the other hand, anyone searching for the article is going to be looking for "Creation Myth" not "Origin Belief". This is because "Origin Belief" is an invented term designed to assuage people's concern over the word "myth".

My first instinct is that it should be reverted to "Creation Myth" as any encyclopedia should be a collection of facts, and not some sort of blueprint for a more PC world. However, upon reading this article, it's unclear to me whether this is the desire of wikipedia or not.

Basically I'm looking for guidance here. I will ultimately defer to the conventions of wikipedia, even if I disagree with them.

66.152.196.34 19:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

"It should be _reverted_" to the name that it had _when_? When did the article first start to have its current name?
The 16:49, 8 Apr 2005 post on the article's talk page indicates that the article was renamed in some way around that time. Was it changed from "Creation Myth" then? If so, reverting it at this point seems late to me because it appears that:
  • 1. There was discussion about this issue on the talk page before the renaming happened.
  • 2. Others haven't reverted it the 2+ years since it was given the current name.
  • 3. The 15:31, 30 October 2007 post on the article's talk page hasn't rallied support for renaming the article.
And Creation myth redirects there. --Ac44ck (talk) 20:47, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

stopped

why am i getting in trouble when im trying to make my own article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dresendiz (talk • contribs) 04:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Demons cause disease

"Europeans in the Middle Ages "knew" that demons caused diseases" Is there a source for this? :) TrickyApron (talk) 10:07, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


Wikipedia:Neutrality

How about renaming this page to Wikipedia:Neutrality (which already links here) and extending it with badly needed aspects on issues of relative coverage other than just the issue of POV pushing, which this policy page traditionally gives far too much attention? I think most non-neutrality in articles is due not to a POV mindset, but to a rather innocuous ignorance on many different aspects of article writing and layout.

Also, I'd welcome something on the imo hugely problematic POV issue of criticism sections. I dorftrottel I talk I 05:18, November 25, 2007

Nevermind. I dorftrottel I talk I 05:27, November 25, 2007

Views

I changed a wording of "...views which are in the extreme minority do not belong in Wikipedia at all" because I found a talk page comment where someone stated that in an article which was about a minority view that view doesn't need to be presented because it's a minority view, and that sounded absurd. I wasn't sure if I should edit this policy with my main account or this, but because I found that talk page related to an arbitration case which I'm uninvolved but made a statement I felt I should use the same account. I have a legitimate main account and I can tell it to someone who isn't involved with that arbitration. I certainly did not plan to get into policy editing with this account. :-) I'm still hoping that I could keep my main account out of these controversies, even though I wanted to make that brief note on an arbitration case and found this a little bit unclear part on this policy. As I understand this is that if a minority view is so extreme that it doesn't even have an article, then it's not presented anywhere. Calejenden 16:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Because this page is so clear about these things in general maybe that one sentence gets understood right here. There's no problem that views which are so extreme that there's no article about them or people advocating them are presented nowhere. And what I tried to add, the same thing is on the page elsewhere. I found a sentence about another matter which I'll comment, it was written 4 July 2007 as a part of a big change which was discussed on the talk page, but I didn't see discussion of that sentence. "A reliable source supporting that a group holds an opinion must accurately describe how large this group is." Link. Many sources assume that the reader has basic information, and often a size of some group would have to be found from another source. I'm leaving this message here hoping that someone who has been developing the wordings of the policy gets to this later. Calejenden 16:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Examples - in DRASTIC need of an update

I surfed on in to the NPOV page to look up a specific detail and randomly noticed the link to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Examples. You can imagine my enormous surprise at finding that this page is essentially unchanged since the day I first posted it back in October 2001. (see the version at Nostalgia).

While I am deeply flattered that something I wrote so long ago is still being referenced, it is fair to say our collective perspective is (ahem) "a tad more sophisticated now". We should either archive it as historical, or subject it to a complete re-write. Manning 13:21, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

NPOV Noticeboard proposal

A proposal concerning the creation of a new Admin noticeboard has developed into the suggestion/proposal to create Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. See Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Proposed new Admin noticeboard. AecisBrievenbus 23:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


Weight of sources for "factual" statements in Wikipedia

(Reposting here, was originally on Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources by mistake, and I was directed here instead)

Hi, I'm sure this will be a Wikipedia 101 question, but please review for me? On Talk:Waterboarding, a rather spirited debate is raging for whether it is acceptable to say essentially, "Waterboarding is torture" as a statement. It had gone in quite a few circles, and then I finally asked people to simply list all the sources that say it isn't torture, versus those that say it is.

We got this as a result.

A large variety of sources and notable opinions that indicate, yes, it's torture, and on the other side, two pundits. One basically saying, "Kick it back to the legislature to decide," which is largely irrelevant, as the United States legislature mentioned in her source of course doesn't decide this globally, and the other pundit simply saying he doesn't think it's torture. My take is that, based on the overwhelming weight of opinion and sourced information, we can only go with what we have at this time: Waterboarding is a form of torture, and we can mention in a subsection or later that some may disagree. As apparently only one sourced person disagrees, I wouldn't mention it in the lead, but down below in the text/discussion of waterboarding and the United States.

Am I analyzing this correctly? Lawrence Cohen 19:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Policy enforcement is in it's interpretation

Policy is a wonderful thing. Every CEO will tell you "ït is meant to be interpreted liberallÿ". If Neutral is supposed to be a policy, then all one can do is watch, shuffle and delete paper, and most bureaucrat do, in line with what they see as "policy".

E.g. This talk is is respnse to the deletion of an article, signed by Wikipedia's founder, for copyright violation by Hut 8.5. See deletion log 1 19:25, 8 December 2007 Hut 8.5 (Talk | contribs) deleted "Open Education Declaration" ‎ (copyvio of http://www.capetowndeclaration.org/front-page/read-the-declaration)

Yes, I know Wikipedia is soon going to be migrating to a Creative Commons license, but until that happens the text can't be included in Wikipedia. Even if that wasn't the case, the text would have been deleted through some other mechanism since it wasn't any kind of encyclopedia article and Wikipedia is not the place for any kind of campaigning, as I'm sure Jimmy Wales will know. Hut 8.5 21:08, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Hut,

Let me get this right. Even if, in the meantime, I get the guys at [4] to put a link to the GNU Free Documentation License, the founder of Wikipedia doesn't have the right to put a document (article) he has signed, whose core aim it is to further the Foundation's aims, on the site he set up?--Simonfj (talk) 21:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

If they license the text under the GFDL then it will not be deleted straight away as a copyright violation. However, Wikipedia is a neutral encyclopedia, and including text campaigning for anything is a violation of WP:SOAP, and this would likely result in the page being deleted in an articles for deletion discussion. Note that Wikipedia's policy of neutrality was strongly championed by Jimmy Wales, and I seriously doubt he is going to break it. There are other websites the Wikimedia Foundation can use to express support for the petition other than Wikipedia. Hut 8.5 21:44, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Now one can't blame Hut 8.5 for doing a good gatekeeping job. But let's consider if we want to let our founder break his own policy; or is this the kind of outcome he meant to encourage by the NPOV policy?--Simonfj (talk) 22:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Publishing the declaration is engaging in the debate, specifically forbidden by WP:NPOV. However, there is nothing at all preventing one from creating an article describing the debate, which is exactly what WP is intended for. 74s181 (talk) 03:53, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Yay. Yet another Persian gulf question

A question has come up in Talk:Persian Gulf regarding the controversial usage of the alternative (and controversial) name the 'Arabian Gulf' in the Lead. A great many there feel that the addition of the controversial alternative name is an undue weight violation. I am not as sure of this, as the naming controversy of the alternate name usage appears within the article, there is an actual dispute about the name, there are cited references to the usage of the name (both historically and contemporarily) and that a sizable percentage of people in the area refer to it as such. the debate seems to be a perennial issue of debate, and it would be nice to specifically address this so as to resolve the usage question.
I've suggested that the matter be rfC'd or even ArbCom'd but the first led nowhere and the second seems like more of a nuclear option, as an AN/I on one of the more uncivil users has served to leaven out the incivility that was brewing there. ArbCom is usually to resolve issues of user condict, not content disputes. the only reason why i still think it might eventually be valid/needed is that it does seem like a policy interpretation dispute. The matter is insoluble to both sides. My own observations of the discussion are that, while it might seem unfair to characterize it as such, this is another cultural-type dispute, similar to the ArbCom Persian Naming Dispute thing from this past summer. Some inpute would be extremely helpful. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 15:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Alternate name of a subject certainly belong in the lead, but perhaps a footnote would be adequate? -- Kendrick7talk 20:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
No, they don't want it mentioned anywhere in the article. Besides, as an alternative name, it does belong in the Lead (perhaps in parentheses, afterthe more widely known name). - Arcayne (cast a spell) 21:36, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Evolution

if there ever was a biased article, that one was it. We should work on that. The accepted truth isn't the only one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.161.138.241 (talk) 21:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


If wikipedia is going to allow religious fundamentalists such as yourself who support ID/creationism to edit science, we might as well let hard-core atheists edit Christianity. Why don't you give a nod to other theories of intelligent design, such as how mankind was designed by the Greek gods? And what about Norse, Chinese, Egyptian, etc creation and intelligent design ideas?

If not, then that is a testament to your hypocrisy. Intranetusa (talk) 03:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


Attempts to undermine this policy with incompatible Guidelines

I just noticed in a relatively new guideline the phrase "Wikipedia self-identifies primarily with mainstream opinion".

I cannot interpret this as anything else but an attempt to undermine (or re-negotiate) our NPOV policy, according to which Wikipedia must not be biased towards any party. "Mainstream" (or majority) opinion is fairly given most space; it is not permitted to let Wikipedia be transformed into a propaganda outlet of majority opinion.

Evidently, Wikipedia must be actively protected from being hijacked by the opinion of any party. What shall we do about it?

Harald88 (talk) 12:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the wording, found in Wikipedia:Fringe theories is questionable. Mainstream doesn't define NPOV, and in fact it often is far from NPOV. This doesn't mean I'm all for WP:SPOV or any other strict notion of what constitutes NPOV, but the word mainstream unfortunately carries connotations of e.g. underinformed masses, of emotional rather than educated judgment. To jump directly to Godwin's law: Mainstream opinion in the Third Reich was that the white race is superior. If Wikipedia had existed at that time in Germany, would that mainstream opinion be NPOV then? Likewise, can mass media generally be considered to be unbiased just because they are the mainstream media? We should however take this to Wikipedia talk:Fringe theories.|dorftrottel |humor me 14:50, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
You could try [[
Indeed I do intend to correct that sentence at that place. However, I first brought it up here by way of bad example. It appears that there is a natural push against WP:NPOV simply by the law of majority opinion; and I vaguely think to remember that one of the founders has written about the constant fight against such forces that try to take over.
To use your example (thanks): Indeed, had the Third Reich taken world power, Wikipedia would have had to give much space to the opinion that the white race is superior and the Jews "Untermenschen". At the same time, there would have been an intense struggle (even risking death) by some editors who try to give alternative opinions appropriate weight. Usually it's much less dramatical, but on many topics Wikipedia is no dou¨bt under attack by people who try to suppress minority opinions in any possible way.
At one point in time there has been an uncontrolled growth of crank articles. I have the impression that this has been properly dealt with, in part thanks to the effectiveness of majority opinion. Thus that was more of an annoyance; the suppresion of notable minority opinions is a much greater danger for NPOV, and, with that, Wikipedia itself.
Perhaps this needs to be discussed at an even higher level, such as the Wikipedia Signpost, but I don't know where. I was hoping that someone of the more regular editors of NPOV has an idea.
Harald88 (talk) 16:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
You could try the WikiEN-l mailing list, or the village pump for policy proposals, but don't get upset if the responses are not overwhelmingly welcoming. WP has a huge inertia, and few are willing to risk any part of the so-so working status quo. |dorftrottel |humor me 17:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

This issue is a highly significant bottleneck to the quality of Wikipedia. I suggest the NPOV policy has a serious flaw since it can't cope with the implications mentioned here. Please give your opinion here:One view will never be nuetral: introduce MPOV to replace NPOV Rokus01 (talk) 18:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a very funny assertion: "Wikipedia self-identifies primarily with mainstream opinion" Afer all, nearly everyone (on opposing sides) believes their opinions relfect the mainstream! Anyone who writes this as "policy" is just looking for an excuse to push their own "mainstream opinion." --Strider12 (talk) 22:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
While people may believe whatever they wish about their views, mainstream opinion is typically easily verifiable, at least on scientific topics, through the statements of major medical/scientific bodies. For instance, statements from the NIH, CDC, Surgeon General, WHO, major European health agencies, and major professional organizations (ACOG/RCOG, ACP, APA, etc) are clearly verifiable indications of where mainstream opinion lies. Where such analyses are unavailable, the task of determining mainstream opinion may be a bit more difficult. MastCell Talk 19:04, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
But statements from people associated with agencies and groups should also be carefully evaluated to see if they represent an official, vetted opinion of that group or are just private opinions. Even the citation of an individual researchers claim that "this is a majority view" by a major organization, such as WHO, does not necessarily mean that WHO has officialy examined a question and come to the same conclusion...unless the document clearly states that this is WHO's official position.
To use examples MastCell is very familiar with, let's consider a 1989 peer reviewed literature review by a group of six members of the family planning and population control subgroup of the APA concluding with their opinion that there is no substantial evidence of serious mental health effects of abortion. (Ignore for the moment that this review was prompted by political questions raised about abortion at that time, and the fact that the APA has lobbied for abortion as a civil right--not a medical benefit--a civil right) While all are APA members, this literture review was never officially adopted by the APA governing body as its "official" conclusions regarding the literature. And, as there is no evidence that the six person team's opinions necessarily represents the majority opinion of the APA, much less psychologists in general, it should not be given undue weight. Certainly it should be cited and included, but not given precedence over subsequent material. But POV-pushers will frequently use such sources as a way to borrow the authority of a larger group, such as the APA, to imply that it has more weight than it really does.
Similarly, when the Surgeon General issued a statement, in 1989, that methodological problems in research done to that date made it impossible to draw an definitive conclusions about abortion's mental health effects, it seems evident that this official refusal to issue a conclusion should NOT be portrayed as proof of where the weight of evidence lies. If anything, it implies that equal weight should be given to both sides. Moreover, as these two sources are over 18 years old, and much more research has been done since then. So should these old sources be allowed to dominate the WEIGHT of an article on post-abortion syndrome? Just because these, and a commentary in JAMA by a single author, are the best (and nearly only) resources those pushing a POV have, they should not be pushed as the determiners of WEIGHT of medical opinion.
In short, when critically examined, these examples, which MastCell frequently relies on at post-abortion syndrome are really not very substantive examples of where "mainstream opinion" lies because there has been no research really done on what constitute the mainstream opinion of physicians and academics.
Also, contrary to MastCell's assertion, it is not always easy to interpret mainstream opinion because even official statements are frequently nuanced. In the case of the post-abortion syndrome controversy, for example, even the experts on the pro-choice side will generally make nuanced statements which say less than they appear. For example, the statement "MOST women do not experience significant emotional" is designed to shift attention away from the implicit admission that some women, a minority, may experience emotional problems. Similarly, the deniers argument that there is "no proof of a CAUSAL connection" is designed to shift attention from the fact that there is abundance evidence of a connection between abortion and mental health problems but a dispute over the causal pathways. So even these sources if carefully read, actually admit that the weight of evidence is that some post-abortion problems do occur. So, citing these sources as proof of the WEIGHT of opinion can actually be misleading if one fails to also report the nuanced statements within these sources and instead concentrates on the broad conclusions which reflect policy recommendations rather than the bare scientific facts. --Strider12 (talk) 21:54, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
OK, now this is just forum-shopping for a specific content dispute. MastCell Talk 21:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
No, this is responding to issues you raise. If you don't want me to respond, stop following me around.--Strider12 (talk) 21:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Prominence and undue weight

Given a number of alternate names which are not widely accepted and are in dispute, would it give the alternate names "undue weight" if they were mentioned in the lead? This is the issue we're trying to sort out over at the Persian Gulf mediation case, and input from the wider community would be welcome. CloudNine (talk) 18:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I would add to this that the alternate names are cited and are a long-standing dispute in the region as per the Persian Gulf naming dispute. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Further, the particular question is with regard to providing additional prominence, as related to Undue Weight, to a name used by a small minority in the lead where it is already included in the article itself. ObserverToSee (talk) 19:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
"Small minority". lol, okay. That isn't really cited, and appears to be a part of the issue of neutrality. :) - Arcayne (cast a spell) 16:18, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

One view will never be neutral: introduce MPOV to replace NPOV?

The NPOV policy was never meant to cope with the limits of interpretation. To start with, what could be neutral to any point of view?

A well known strategy of experienced POV pushers is to push out all views they oppose to from an article, on the pretext that those other views are not significant enough. These so-called "insignificant" views easily include published scholarly points of view. Somehow this wrong-doers are free to present those other views as contradicting some kind of "mainstream" popular view, by law of nature identified as "neutral". However, the neutrality of such a "neutral" point of view is irreconcilable to the personal point of view of those that seek to give WP:UNDUE attention to their own opinion, maybe even at the cost of criticism and the results of other investigations.

All of this is possible for those that intent to abuse NPOV policy at the limits of its applicability. Sure, theoretically some kind of "neutrality" could (and should) be achieved by verifiability and objectivity: however, authority and general acceptance will rarely contribute to such a neutrality, not even being a scholarly point of view, and certainly never as a rule of thumb. How "neutral" was the once generally accepted autocratic dogma of the earth being flat? So, if "neutrality" of any point of view is disputable by definition, why not better stop the abuse of NPOV by hard to dethrone cabals and drop NPOV policy altogether. To make an article truely neutral and encyclopedical, Wikipedia should rather adhere to a policy of Multiple Points Of View (MPOV) instead. Rokus01 (talk) 18:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree with your assessment of what many POV-pushers' tactics are - it amounts to ostracisation tactics being used to endorse one pet hypotheses and pretend all others don't exist or don't count, and I have seen this too many times. But surely there are already more effective ways to combat this kind of pov-pushing than changing the name of the NPOV policy; since the policy already requires MPOV in effect, it would be nothing more than a ceremonial and probably highly contentious (thus impractical) name change. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

In defense of MPOV I argue that POV pushers would have a hard time to push out significant scholarly points of views by abusing MPOV policy. Yes, to replace the misnomer of one of the three very pillars of WP policy by a better equivalent could be cumbersome. Still, anything that would contribute to balance, quality and above all, peace, would be worth some consideration - no matter how symbolic. Rokus01 (talk) 18:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

As written now, it already demands multiple points of view adequately enough... Perhaps "MPOV" should be more fully described as a crucial pillar of NPOV, something that is within NPOV. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, please explain why you deem an official emphasis to multiple views contentious? Won't it be rather the contrary, that people will have to waist less time in WP:OR to advertise their personal point of view as the one and only that would be the "most neutral and significant"? Rokus01 (talk) 18:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh no, I am in agreement with you! I think if MPOV were made a subsection of NPOV, it would satisfy your aims, then such pov pushers could be directed to the MPOV subsection of the NPOV page. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
NPOV is already MPOV. All editors and all sources are biased, the key to NPOV is to describe the POVs, rather than asserting them, as in, 'Expert A says X. Expert B says Y. Group C teaches Z.' The policy is clear on this. Some editors choose not to understand the policy, changing the policy won't make any difference to those editors. 74s181 (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The problem isn't the wording of the policy, the problem is enforcement. Although NPOV is the core policy of WP, there seems to be much more enforcement of behavioral violations such as violations of WP:NPA, WP:3RR, etc. WP:ARBCOM avoids NPOV disputes, making excuses like:
  • Decline. I believe this is fundamentally a content problem of the sort which we are notoriously bad at fixing... The Uninvited Co., Inc. 23:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Decline. Agree it seems largely to be a content issue. - SimonP 14:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The result of this attitude towards enforcement of WP:NPOV is that a POV pusher can succeed as long as he is 'polite'. 74s181 (talk) 20:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
SeeAbuse of WEIGHT argument below for one recommendation that tries to bridge NPOV while ensuring that "undue weight" does not kill MPOV. In essence, I'm arguing that while there is a reasonable argument for limiting inclusion of references to an unlimited number of non-peer reviewed articles which may distort weight, a different rule should apply to peer reviewed work. In short, summaries of peer reviewed articles should never be subject to purging because that prevents the true weight of academic work from ever being presented. The way to show the weight of facts is to let all peer reviewed material be presented. This also allows the wieght of an article to organically shift as new research is conducted and published, especially in controversial areas.--Strider12 (talk) 22:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, this is well-covered by WP:WEIGHT. There are dozens if not hundreds to thousands of peer-reviewed articles on any serious scientific subject. Nothing magical happens through peer-review that makes a source suddenly inviolable. The idea is not to include as many sources as possible, but to provide an accurate overview of a topic. On scientific topics, where expert bodies have synthesized the available literature, the opinions of these expert bodies should guide the scientific coverage of the topic. But again, this is an attempt to win a content dispute (where Strider12 is a lone and tendentious voice) by moving the policy goalposts.