Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Podilsko-Voskresenska Line/Party Statements

Hillock65

My opinion is that the Russian name of the metro line should not be included in the lead of that article and other Kiev Metro articles.

I think this because inclusion of Russian names in these articles violates a number of WP policies, and namely:

• Russian language in the lead of the article will confuse the reader and lead him/her to believe in the bilingual status of the city. Which Kyiv, officially is definitely not. The Russian language in the Ukrainian capital, in spite of the fact that it is spoken by a considerable minority, does not have any status and is one of the minority languages in the country. Thus inclusion of Russian names will distort the reality and will constitute a POV and Undue Weight (WP:NPOV). Inclusion of Russian names will attempt to present the Russian language in the Kyiv metro as the one equal to Ukrainian. Despite our feelings and arguments for or against it, it is not, and changing that is a violation of the neutrality of the article.
• Since Russian language is de-facto absent from virtually all signs, maps, trains and even the official website of the Kyiv metro[1], its inclusion in the lead will also constitute Original Research (WP:OR). Since there are no official Russian names of the Kyiv metro, users, who insert them there in many cases just translate them from Ukrainian or invent them. A good example of flagrant violation of that policy is Ploschad Nezavisimosti (Kiev Metro) station. The fact is, that a station with this name does not exist and have never existed in reality. This name has never been used and is an invention of the authors of the article. Even the amateur websites used to support this invention differ in its Russian translation![2][3] And of all the versions the authors of the article "chose" Russian translation to suit their POV.
• Inclusion of Russian names will also be questionable in regards to the Verifiability (WP:V) requirement, as in most cases they are, if not translated off-hand, then are taken from amateur websites related to metro topics. Virtually all websites presented as evidence to support these names explicitly state that they are not official and are not affiliated with the governing body of the Kyiv metro. With absence of printed and reliable sources, the only source that comes close to qualifying as reliable is the official site of the Kyiv metro run by the elected city admininstration. This site presents stations in Ukrainian only and there are no Russian names at all.
• As per WP:SOURCE these articles have to reflect the reality in Kyiv metro, not POV of some users. And the reality is that the only names present on the ground are Ukrainian. Reliable sources should be used to support names of the stations. That should exclude all amateur and unreliable sites used to invent these names. As I have shown above, they do not even agree on the Russian names of the stations, and this is because these names don't exist in reality.
• The only compromise that has been proposed at MedCab is that Russian names are included in the history section of the metro articles, especially if the stations were built before 1991. These names should be included in the history section, provided, their correct previous names in Russian could be ascertained from reliable sources. An example of how this subject should be treated can be found in another foreign language version - the Dutch language WP. Here is how the Dutsch solved the problem with the Ploschad Nezavisimosti (Kiev Metro) station — nl:Majdan Nezalezjnosti (metrostation). There the sources on station names are taken seriously and are reflected truthfully in the articles on the subject. Only Ukrainian names are reflected in the lead as presented in the reliable sources. It is my opinion that English WP should do the same.--Hillock65 13:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Kuban kazak

My opinion is that the Russian name of the metro line should be included in the lead of that article and other Kiev Metro articles.

I think this because:

• First of all although officially Russian is not equal in Ukrainian wrt Ukrainian constitution de facto it is vividly different from how some try to portray it. First of all, although the Ukrainian Kiev Metro website does in fact not have a Russian version (although it did before, and given how some of the information is out of date on the website, there is no need to attribute the lack of the Russian version because of political reasons, it could well be due to host problems). Other websites have a Russian version. Starting with Ukrainian president's Official website, including a press release of him opening a metro station. Likewise Kiev City Administration (the owner of the municipal company that runs the Metro) is fully trilingual (in addition to Russian it has an English version).
• Second point, it is wrong to say that Russian language is a "minority" language in Kiev. I would say true to the opposite, it is a language of majority in Kiev. True to the point it is still fairly common to see Russian language signs in Kiev, and in Kiev Metro. For example:[4] [5] [6] (please note that the last image was taken in 2006). Therefore claiming that Russian language is absent in the Metro system is also plain wrong, a POV, and Original Research.
• Thirdly, whilst there were some claims about transliteration as a wedge, however one cannot take it to be a reason for not including in the articles. WRT Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Kiev Metro) and how do people translate it into Russian the equivelent Ploschad Nezavisimosti or directly transliterate it from Ukrainian is questionable, and IMO beyond the scope of this article. But for the record its pre-1991 name: October Revolution square was in Russian languaged maps written sometimes as either the Russian Ploschad Oktyabriskoy Revolyutsii, or the Ukrainian derived Ploschad Zhovtnevoy Revolyutsii (as witnessed here and here). In fact here is Russian language map (dated ~2000) that gives the standard Russian tranlation of the station in question [7].
• The bigger picture is this edit by User:Irpen whose authority in wikipedia and Ukrainian articles I will not question. What do we get out removing names that have never hurt anyone. I though it was wikipedia's policy to provide as much information as possible, not remove it.
• Regards, Kuban Cossack 18:16, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

TAG

My opinion is that the Russian name of the metro line should be included in the lead of that article and other Kiev Metro articles.

I think this because:

• According to closest matching guideline WP:NCGN - all names that used by group of people living in this location should be included in lead. Usage of this guideline will make articles consistent.
• Ukraine is de jure and de facto support and use all languages (per s:Constitution of Ukraine#Article 10 and census).
• Russian names of old stations were used in the past and should be preserved in articles for historic reasons.
• Additionally Russian names are currently used as can be witnessed on websites of state owned airport, Kiev city administration and also introduced for newly built stations like on president website.

So in summary here is my proposal - as long as there are trusted sources (per WP:V) for Russian name, based on WP:NPOV - names should be represented fairly and without bias in all significant languages (in our situation this is Russian and Ukrainian as others languages does not pass 10% test). There should not be omissions because some people don't like it to be included.

I can only agree that transliteration of Russian name in English can be omitted - to not introduce WP:OR as transliteration is often unsourced. I.e. in my opinion this is correct lead (per WP:NCGN - all names in () with official comes first).

The Podilsko-Voskresenska Line (Ukrainian: Подільсько-Воскресенська лінія, Russian: Подольско-Воскресенская линия).

TAG 17:28, 2 August 2007 (UTC)