Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/National militaries task force/archive1

Priorities?

User:Buckshot06 has proposed that this task force develop an initial list of roughly five countries to focus on. He has suggested Military of Nigeria, Military of Brazil, Military of Indonesia, and possibly Military of Afghanistan and Military of Iran. I support this suggestion, though I suggest that the Korean People's Army (aka the Military of North Korea) could perhaps also be included given the attention this regularly attracts and the current poor quality of the articles on this topic. --Nick Dowling (talk) 09:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

These are all important militaries that deserve much better articles than they presently have. Considering my limited wikitime, though, I will probably continue working on the Central Asian air forces for the time being. The info I find for one often leads to useful information for another, so I can leverage my research time accordingly. Askari Mark (Talk) 02:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Nigeria, West Africa, and Africa

Of Buckshot's proposals, I'm most interested in Nigeria, then North Korea. Let me talk a bit about the heading, and decide if some other things are in scope.

Africa seems to be developing on a regional basis, with the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS) being dominant in West Africa. There is a regional peacekeeping (and peace enforcement) organization, the Economic Community of West African States Monitoring Group (ECOMOG). ECOMOG is dominated by Nigeria, but, in several operations, they have had at least symbolic contingents from other West African nations.

For those of you familiar with Thomas Barnett's The Pentagon's New Map, what the British component called Operation Palliser formed Leviathan, with the ECOMOG force being the System Administrator, ECOMOG probably prepared for more combat than Barnett's ideal.

Under the continental-level African Union, Nigeria has sent troops to Darfur, flying out of Abadan using US C-130 airlift.

So---are we just doing the country's military, or is multinational cooperation a necessary part of the articles? In turn, that would probably mean we need to have articles on the regional organizations.

What about the other countries on the initial list? For example, Indonesia is in ASEAN. ASEAN, in turn, is developing intelligence-sharing with the US, for counterterror, protection from piracy, and possibly counterdrug. See SIGINT by Alliances, Nations and Industries for some of the ASEAN development, and also the Five Power Defence Arrangements.

I hesitate to think of anyone doing joint operations with the DPRK, although, of course, they did have Chinese and Soviet assistance in the Korean War.

Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 12:49, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Um, no, incorrect on some things. ECOMOG is not a standing organisation, but a name that has been used several times for a hastily pulled together force held together by non-West African logs support. Read Dana Priest's 'The Mission' or detailed accounts on the operation in Liberia for accounts of how shambolic the Nigerian military can be. I believe we need to focus on an accurate account of the country's military, and if that includes cooperation and combined operations with other countries, that should be in there. But as the Military of Nigeria article doesn't even include a ship list, I think we're a long way from that point. Getting the basics in place should come first: sketch of overall national security situation, brief history of the armed forces, size & force composition, personnel, training, equipment etc. Once we've got those elements, well-referenced, in place, we can start thinking of other things. I vote we concentrated on the Military of Nigeria and the Korean Peoples' Army and get the basis on those two up to scratch for a start. Cheers Buckshot06 (talk) 03:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

That sounds good. I think that the relative handful of standing multi-national military forces are within scope (eg, NATO) and think that all articles on national militaries include their formal and informal relationships with other militaries. --Nick Dowling (talk) 07:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Didn't mean to suggest ECOMOG was standing. At best, it's a primarily a Nigerian organization with Nigerian levels of combat support and combat service support. The AU units in Darfur are dependent on US airlift and occasional ground convoys--since the best airport in Darfur, El Fasher, has no pipeline connections, aircraft flying there have to suffer the severe weight penalty of carrying return fuel. An aside, but I don't see any serious resolution of Darfur until someone builds a transportation infrastructure there.

OTOH, it's not unreasonable to identify the deficiencies that such a force has in doing any power projection, and perhaps, if it can be done without WP:OR, seeing what it could do with the sort of non-combat major power support described in the foreign internal defense article. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 23:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

How can you complain about a navy that has a RADM Jonah? Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 12:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

It goes like this. The Nigerian Navy, bless its cotton socks, has seven rear admirals and one major surface combatant, a MEKO 200. They also have a bunch of small stuff, PCs and soforth, and none of it goes to sea without major effort. They are largely non-operational. The Royal New Zealand Navy has one rear admiral, two frigates, two big support ships, survey ships, patrol craft, etc, and they all go to sea regularly. That's why I complain..! Buckshot06 (talk) 22:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

That's good, but not as good as the Military of Paraguay which has company sized 'divisions' and "the largest Navy of any landlocked country". --Nick Dowling (talk) 23:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I hear you. I don't even know the prefix for a Nigerian vessel, or if they have one. IIRC, the US Navy once had a submarine named Whale, and, if RADM Jonah was in the USN, they really should have given him that boat. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 23:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

For interest, it's NNS - Nigerian Naval Ship. I've just added a couple of refs and a ship list to the Nigerian Navy section but all help is appreciated.. Buckshot06 (talk) 23:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Tagging Articles

I though you'd like to know that I've tagged almost 100 articles that fall under the scope of this new task force so far. Category:National militaries task force articles if you're interested. -MBK₀₀₄ 05:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Good job! ... I'd forgotten how many were on my watch list! ;-) Askari Mark (Talk) 01:33, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Some of our Task Force's unique challenges

I ran into a number of challenges during my rewriting and expansion effort on the Armenian Air Force, which was the first article I shaped to my proposed generic structure for "XYZ Air Force" articles. One challenge we’re going to have with some of the more obscure armed forces is the limited range of accessible sources available. For instance, I found only one decent source on the Nagorno-Karabakh War.

Another challenge is the degree to which incorrect information is given as fact – and how we present incomplete, contradictory and unverified information. You really can’t have equipment inventories without dealing with this. I dealt with this in two ways. First, I adapted an existing table to include those aircraft for which there was good evidence for. At the end of the table I appended a list of aircraft whose service has been attested to, but is unverified. It is unavoidable that some judgment has to be made here. For one thing, I had to allow for confusion of Armenian-based aircraft for Armenian-owned and -operated aircraft. The deciding factor for me was whether or not I could find photographs of these planes in Armenian markings. A lot of purported Armenian aircraft were actually Russian. I suspect that there may well have been some MiG-23s transferred by the Russians when their MiG-29s arrived at Yerevan, but if so, I doubt the Armenians kept them long since they are difficult to maintain and not really suited for their operational environment. It’s also quite possible that the most recent mention of Su-27s represents a real transfer, but none of these aircraft has been confirmed to have entered operation.

Maintaining these carefully balanced tables can be problematic given that any editor finding an aircraft type or quantity – especially concerning the number actually operational at any given time – is likely to plug it in and offer a citation for it, not knowing that it’s incorrect.

These problems are limited to aircraft, naturally, so we need to give some thought to how to cope with them. Askari Mark (Talk) 02:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Eyes wanted at Portal:British Army

Jhfireboy has been working on this portal and would appreciate comments to help improve it on the portal's talk page. Thanks in advance, --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 05:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

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Wikpedia 0.7 article improvement

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Army of Cuba composition and oob?

Its been something I have been looking for ages. I can never get an order of battle for the Cuban army, all the sites I know and use either lack any information or have very general info. Here is what we have now in the "Military of Cuba" article:

"Up to five armoured brigades Nine mechanized infantry brigades (each containing three mechanized infantry regiments, one armoured, one artillery and one Air Defense artillery regiment) One Airborne brigade of two battalions Fourteen reserve brigades The Guantanamo Frontier Brigade - Surrounding the American base at Guantanamo Bay Naval Base One air defence artillery regiment One surface-to-surface missile brigade"

So no names of the units, no info on their location, no further info on their composition... really vague and general stuff. And even this is unsourced. :/

Same goes for the equipment. I have reliable info about their Tanks and APCs, but even those information are from the 1990s.

Is the Cuban army really so secret? Does anyone know any potential source on it? I can write the article, I can even make a graphical schema... but I need some sources.

(Wilhelm Klave (talk) 23:09, 5 September 2009 (UTC))

Sources online include 'Central American Wars 1959-89 By Carlos Caballero Jurado, Nigel Thomas, Simon McCouaig' which you can find from Google Books, but the detailed orders of battle are offline (as they usually are.) My first source was Jane's Military Review, 4th year of issue, first published 1985. Also see 'Armed Forces of Latin America,' another really helpful book. However neither has the designations that I've only found for certain in (ed) Chris Westhorp, 'The World's Armies,' Salamander Books, 1991, p.29. I'm not sure this is fair-use, but here's the verbatim text:

'The island of Cuba itself is divided into three major geographical commands, each garrisoned by an 'Army.' The Isle of Youth (formerly the Isle of Pines) has the status of an autonomous military region and is thought to be garrisoned by the 71st Infantry Division (HQ Nueva Gerona)'

'Cuban security is obsessive and almost nothing is released regarding the composition or deployment of the Revolutionary Armed Forces. The Western Army (HQ Havana) is thought to consist of the 1st Armoured Division (HQ Managua), the 20th Mechanised Division (HQ Havana) and the Pinar del Rio Army Corps, which, in turn, is believed to be made up of the 11th, 12th, and 24th Infantry Divisions with their HQs in Pinar del Rio, Guane, and Mariel respectively.'

'The Central Army (HQ Matanzas) is believed to comprise the 40th Mechanised Division (HQ Matanzas) and the Las Villas Army Corps. This corps is thought to consist of the 42nd, 67th, and 68th Infantry Divisions.'

'The Eastern Army (HQ Santiago de Cuba) is thought to consist of the 2nd Armoured Division (HQ S d C) the 30th and 50th Mechanised Divisions (HQs Guantanamo and Bayamo) the Guantanamo Frontier Brigade, and the Holguin and Camaguey Army Corps. The Holguin Corps is believed to be made up of the 37th and 38th Infantry Divisions (HQs Holguin and Las Tunas) and the Camaguey the 55th and 56th Infantry Divisions (HQs Camaguey and Ciego de Avila).

Of course, this is at least eighteen years old. Up to date data, though sketchy, would be in the IISS Military Balance (raw numbers of formations only, without designations) and, maybe, in http://www.orbat.com's Concise World Armies 2009. If I were you I'd take a look at www.orbat.com and send an email to Ravi Rikhye, the editor there, and ask about his level of detail for his Cuba entry in Concise World Armies 2009. CWA 2009 is at least US $60.00, probably a bit more. Hope this helps. Buckshot06(prof) 00:27, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I've got a copy of Orbat.com's 2001 Cuban Army orbat, and it goes down to brigade level so that site is definitely a good option. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of CWA, but the standard is generally high and Ravi's assessments of the quality of his material are honest. Nick-D (talk) 00:38, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Wooo! Finally got some at least mildly detailed online info. Had to us ethe wayback machine though:

http://web.archive.org/web/20080112102807/cubapolidata.com/cafr/cafr_military_regions.html

I'll add this to the cuban army article, if anyone has info taht is more fresh, please add it. (Wilhelm Klave (talk) 11:10, 10 September 2009 (UTC))

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