Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Musical Theatre/Archive 15

Reliable sources?

I haven't edited theatrical articles much at all on wikipedia. Can folks tell me if playbill, theatrely and broadwayworld are reliable sources? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:19, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm less familiar with theatrely but Playbill and Broadway World are both very much legit. Umimmak (talk) 14:23, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

To my knowledge Playbill and Broadway World are the gold standard for Theatrical Productions in the United States. PonyExprezz (talk) 14:23, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree that Playbill and BroadwayWorld are both RSs, and I see that Theatrely has an editorial staff and staff critics; they feature theatre news, reviews, interviews and other editorial features. After reading a few of their reviews, I thought them well written and knowledgeable. You didn't ask this, but everyone should know that IBDB is a RS (unlike IMDB). -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:12, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Playbill and BWW are my go to sources for Broadway. For West End/UK, I tend to use Whatsonstage.Mark E (talk) 22:05, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Just as long as the BroadwayWorld articles used are the editorial ones, and not the ones that are literally just someone's media release which is not a WP:RS. Many disingenuous editors try to imply the latter are the former. Boneymau (talk) 02:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, some BWW pieces are basically reprinted press releases. Those should be treated as WP:ABOUTSELF. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:51, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

We Will Rock You

Went on to look for some information on We Will Rock You and the article was extremely difficult to navigate. I've gone on and trimmed down the productions section which was particularly bloated. As for the cast lists in the article, there are 13 just for London, all with understudies and full ensemble listed. Would anyone object to using a more standard format and including productions with notable cast members in a table, with any notable replacements listed below? Mark E (talk) 23:14, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Incredibly bloated. I have made further nips and tucks to the productions section. Yes, I agree that you should delete all the trivial cast info and make a table with the major productions and long-running starry ones (principal cast only, with blue-linked replacements footnoted). The plot summary could be trimmed. The Variations section should note only notewothy changes, with all the trivia trimmed away. The Shows with Queen section seems ridiculous. Can't that be reduced to a paragraph somehow? The Characters section is completely unnecessary. They will be listed in the new cast table, and anything noteworthy about each character should be included in the plot summary. The Music section also needs trimming. I removed the stuff about the film projects that never happened. Let me know if you need help with any sections. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:38, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

What title should a musical have if a new production with a different name is planned?

Please provide opinions at Talk:Bad Cinderella#Article title and WP:CRYSTAL regarding a recent move of an article from Cinderella (Lloyd Webber musical) to Bad Cinderella. A production using the former title ran until June 2022 and a new production with the latter title is planned for March 2023 (that is, in the future which conflicts with WP:CRYSTAL). Johnuniq (talk) 04:12, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Should show songs be considered songs for disambiguation purposes?

Looking at Bloody Mary (South Pacific). Shouldn't that be at (South Pacific character), given the song? In ictu oculi (talk) 21:09, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Hair (musical) at peer review

You can comment on the new peer review here: Wikipedia:Peer review/Hair (musical)/archive2 -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:43, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

When to add an upcoming stage production to a table listing a person's stage credits.

There is a discussion over at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Actors_and_Filmmakers about when it is appropriate to add an upcoming stage production (e.g., play or musical) to a table in a "Stage performances" (or similarly named section) in a performer's biography. This could also apply to non-performing roles (e.g., director, choreographer, etc.) Interested editors active in this project are invited to participate in that discussion. — Archer1234 (t·c) 21:27, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion continues and now includes whether individual dates (past or future) and locations for national tours should be listed in a cast/crew member's credits (see the "Theatre" section of Jason Forbach for an example). — Archer1234 (t·c) 19:53, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Notice of RfC re: Gene Kelly

See: Talk:Gene Kelly#RfC about description in opening of article and infobox. -- Softlavender (talk) 06:39, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:58, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

IMO, this is fine, and we should not opt out. It would be better if there were just one quality assessment on each Talk page, instead of potentially inconsistent quality assessments from one project banner to another. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:22, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Proposal re: Infobox Musicals: List of productions

I suggest that we modify the infobox template, and the infoboxes, throughout the project, to include only the premiere production, unless the first production is a pre-Broadway or pre-West End tryout, and in that case include only the B'way/WE premiere production. The long list in some musicals' infoboxes is not only redundant with the productions section, but it sometimes takes up a lot of space, and it really is not that important to list the 9 US and 6 UK national tours, etc. I have come, over the years, to the conclusion that it was a mistake to include it in the infoboxes in the current form. If we get a consensus in favor this, let's form a working group to make it happen throughout all the musicals articles. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:13, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

Input request

I would appreciate input at the discussion at Talk:How Newtown Prepared#Plot. This is a difficult one to parse out source wise, and needs careful consideration. Best.4meter4 (talk) 15:41, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Another input request

Comments appreciated at Talk:List of plays adapted into feature films#Need for article split.4meter4 (talk) 18:56, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Laird Mackintosh

I noticed that the article for Laird Mackintosh, who played the title role for the last performance of The Phantom of the Opera on Broadway, needs some improvement. Any help with sourcing would be appreciated. Best, Thriley (talk) 02:56, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Input request

Members may wish to comment here as some musical theatre actors have been the recipient of this award. The outcome could also impact other categories on awards in the arts by setting a precedent. All opinions welcome. See Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 July 1#Category:Kennedy Center honorees.4meter4 (talk) 19:16, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Category discussion

Just discovered this discussion: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 June 18#Category:Musical television specials. Project members may wish to comment.4meter4 (talk) 01:27, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Input request on article title

Please comment at Talk:Burlesque Opera of Tabasco#Article title.4meter4 (talk) 03:24, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Great new source (at least new to me)

Hi all. I just discovered a treasure trove of material at the Retrospective Index to Music Periodicals (1760–1966); a website dedicated to making historic music journals available to the public. These are particularly useful for this project for reviews of early musicals and operettas. If you have interests in classical music, opera, etc. it is an even better resource for those content areas. Best.4meter4 (talk) 12:08, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Tony Award for Best Musical

Tony Award for Best Musical - This page has become unreadable with listing all the producers, especially more recent entries which have long lists of producers. Any thoughts on removing this? It is all linked in on the official Tony Website. Mark E (talk) 11:25, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

@ Mark E The benefit of having lists on wikipedia is having lists with wiki-links which allow you to go to encyclopedia entries on people, places, things, etc within those lists. An external list doesn't interlink with wikipedia's content so I would not support the removal of this list. Further, our project doesn't have the authority to make this kind of decision unilaterally. Removing/deleting content falls under the purview of WP:AFD. The list is a bit bulky with the producers listed towards the bottom, but that is not a valid reason to remove the list which clearly passes WP:LISTN and would easily survive an AFD. Perhaps some sort of reformatting would help organize the content more easily and solve the complaint about bulky reading? Best.4meter4 (talk) 11:45, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm in no way suggesting the removal of the article. Merely, removing the producers and reverting back to Book/Music/Lyrics as seem in this earlier revision - https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tony_Award_for_Best_Musical&oldid=1159716664 Mark E (talk) 13:59, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for clarifying. I have no strong opinion either way. Technically, the producers are the nominees. They are the ones who receive the award. That said, the average reader isn't likely to be looking for the producers. We could simply limit the producer names to those with articles and make it clear in our list description that we are intentionally not including all producers, only those with wikipedia pages.4meter4 (talk) 14:14, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

It is out of control. If you bring up a Talk page proposal at that article, mention it here, and we can all comment there and try to reach a consensus. 4meter's suggestion of only listing blue-linked producers and then citing the link to the Tony Awards page with the full list might be a good compromise. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:46, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Even listing only blue linked producers would have meant for an extremely bloated list. I have reverted to previous format. I'm looking at this from the view of a general reader (ie, me) who will want to be able to easily access the information without having to scroll over sometimes 30+ producers per production. Mark E (talk) 11:31, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

So the edit war continues. Again, if you start a Talk page discussion, a consensus can be reached and enforced. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:07, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Discussion opened Talk:Tony_Award_for_Best_Musical#Listing_Producers Mark E (talk) 10:42, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Fatter table headings?

Someone is going through all the musicals articles and doing this. I think it is the wrong thing to do, because it makes these already overlong tables even longer. The previous format is more efficient. But I'm not going to fight this by myself. Can we get a consensus on this, and if others agree with me, we can put them all back together. Otherwise, I'll just grumble and accept it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:56, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Much prefer the previous format with the place then year. I’m all for simplicity and easily seeing the information needed. Mark E (talk) 10:17, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

List of Tony Award-nominated productions

I reviewed this article as part of WP:NPP a couple days ago and it's been sitting on my watchlist, but I thought it might be a good idea to get more eyes on it as y'all will be more familiar with the standards in this area than I am. Is it worth having a big list like this when we already have lists that include this information for the individual awards? I have no preference either way, it's just a very long article in its current form. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)^{Talk to Me!} 11:29, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

I do not think it is a helpful list and will just add clutter to "See also" sections. It just duplicates info given more precisely in the year-by-year Tony Awards lists. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:23, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

John Murray Anderson's Almanac

This article is a mess. Can anyone give it a once over? I have already clashed enough with the creator of the article, so it should be someone else. Note the extensive uncited and tangential information in the captions of the (misplaced) images at the top of the article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:41, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/On The Flip Side – Original Cast Album

Comments would be appreciated at this AFD. All opinions welcome. 4meter4 (talk) 22:48, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Deletion of Craig Gallivan

An editor at AfD is proposing the deletion of the article on Craig Gallivan. He appeared as a major character, Luke, in 56 episodes of the Sky 1 TV series Stella among other TV roles, and he has had major roles in long runs in two West End theatre productions: (1) Dewey, the central character in Andrew Lloyd Webber's School of Rock, which he played for more performances than any other actor, and (2) Olaf, a major supporting character, in the original West End cast of the Disney musical Frozen (which he is still playing). The article does need to cite more sources. If anyone has an opinion about this either way, please join the deletion discussion here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Craig_Gallivan. Happy editing! -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:52, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Dwayne Cooper

I've started an entry for American actor Dwayne Cooper. I'm familiar with Milan from Drag Race, and less familiar with Wikipedia biographies of stage actors, if any project members are interested in making improvements. Potentially interested in a GA co-nom if anyone's looking for a collab. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:27, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Dr. Seuss' How the Grinch Stole Christmas! The Musical

The referential language in this article is very confusing:

First, the article mentions a 1994 production in Minneapolis, "Dr. Seuss's How the Grinch Stole Christmas". Was this a musical? Who wrote the book, the lyrics, the music? Was it Timothy Mason, who was associated with the CTC during the 1960s and later? I know that their 2023 production was a musical.

Next, it discusses "the musical" in San Diego, with different creators.

Then, it describes a Broadway version, by Timothy Mason and others. (It also has a second sentence without a verb.)

There seem to be two or three different musicals here, and the language shoud make that clear, and not just repeatedly refer to "the musical".

And which version is described in the "Musical numbers" section, not to mention the thumbnail(?) information at the top right of the article? It's all very confusing. Pbergerd (talk) 05:07, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

As you posted identical content at Talk:Dr. Seuss' How the Grinch Stole Christmas! The Musical, I feel the discussion would be best played out there. DonIago (talk) 15:27, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for How Do You Solve a Problem like Maria?

How Do You Solve a Problem like Maria? has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Spinixster (chat!) 06:55, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

First Lesbian Protagonist?

Can anyone comment here, please? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fun_Home_(musical)#Error_re:_first_Broadway_musical_to_feature_a_lesbian_protagonist -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:32, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Some issues in List of musicals: A to L

Hi all. I am taking on the task of referencing this list and as I do so I am coming up against several issues. The most problematic issue is the venue/type section where I have caught both inconsistencies and errors. Most of the errors stem from shows where the Broadway production was not the original stage production and sometimes happened a year or two after the stage musical premiered in a city other than New York. In such cases the show is mislabeled as dating from a later date than what happened in reality or the Broadway show is listed as occurring in an earlier year than when it actually reached the New York stage. There are other issues involving the identification of a medium of the work, and occassionally the duplication of works that got revised and staged under a new name but are essentially the same musical.

All of this to say, I'd like to propose some alterations to the list structure to prevent errors. I would like to retitle the venue/type to medium where the choices would be: stage, television, or film musical. There might be the further choice of "album" or "concept album" if it was a musical that never made it past a recorded work which has happened a few times, or in the case of a show like Evita where the premiere was really a studio recording of the work rather than a staged production. I would then like to add the column: premiere where the date and place of the original stage productions can be given, or the date of a television or film's release can be placed. We could then do one of two things. The first option would be to create a "Major productions" column to cover Broadway, West End, productions after a premiere, or we could simply relegate all of that to the existing "notes" section.

I think these changes would make for a more informative and accurate list. Thoughts?4meter4 (talk) 15:46, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

There is no definitive answer. But if the show had a short-running tryout, or series of short-running tryouts prior to a successful Broadway or WE run, then I think the premiere production is the Broadway or WE production, and the tryout is essentially a footnote. Note that "premiere" is a nearly meaningless term, as media use it indiscriminately to refer to even revivals in new places. If, on the other hand, the show had a major, or long-running off-Broadway, regional or off-WE production, like Hair or Little Shop of Horrors, then that production was the premiere. If the show had a major concept album, like Evita but then went on to a successful stage production, then the concept album was not the premiere of the musical, but a separate adaptation. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:52, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I personally think the first performance should be catalogued for all works; because that is how works should be dated. If a show premiered in June 1903 but didn't reach Broadway until March 1904 then it is a 1903 musical and not a 1904 one. It's not unusual for musicals to have premiered in a city like Chicago long before they reached Broadway, or for shows to tour before they reach New York (particularly shows pre-1940). I can't tell you how many Broadway shows I've come across in theatre reference works which date shows to their Broadway production; only to find that they premiered a year or two years earlier in another city and toured widely before they reached the New York stage; some of them having longer runs in the Windy City and on tour then the New York production. Likewise, many shows in the late 19th and early 20th century had stops on Broadway on tours; a fact that often gets overlooked when cataloguing shows with short runs. Writers on these works fail to recognize the "road musical" that came into New York not for a lengthy stay but as part of a national tour; which is why they only played Broadway for one or two weeks. A good example of this would be The Floor Walkers (1899) which is erroneously dated to the brief Broadway stop in 1900 in most sources. There are many musicals of this type. I get that tryouts often involve making major revisions to shows, but I don't think we should ignore the first performance of a work for the purposes of dating that stage work to an accurate year. Cataloging the first performance is a much more accurate, objective, and encyclopedic approach to dating stage works. It's also what we do at WP:WikiProject Opera.4meter4 (talk) 15:14, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Musicals and plays should NOT be dated!! I strongly object to calling a show a 1903 musical. It may be *written* in 1900, *published* in 1901, have a reading or workshop in 1902, have a one-night performance for a special event later in 1902, a one week tryout in a small theatre in 1903 and a West End production beginning in 1904. Musicals should be identifed by composer/lyricist/book writer, not by year. -- Ssilvers (talk) 02:36, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Ssilvers The article already dates all of the works with a year in parenthesis; often incorrectly as explained above. I want to remove that parenthesis and replace it with a premiere performance column and better details on the major productions. I don't see how listing the performance premiere in a column designated to listing the first performance is doing something that is hurting the list; nor is it slapping an over-simplified label in the manner in which you just claimed above. All it's doing is giving the first date a work was performed and the name of the city and theatre where it happened. That is improving our understanding of the work in context, and it more accurately represents when a work began its performance history. We could also include a publication date column to provide details on published scores/libretti, and provide any other details in the notes section such as to say when it was created. There's a lot of ways to approach this; none of which simplify the presentation of the works into a single dated parenthesis which is the current practice that I am objecting to. I personally would prefer if we also listed the Broadway and West End premiere dates as well with the names of the theaters.4meter4 (talk) 18:46, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

OK, but I would state in the Notes column \when/wnere the first major-market production opened, if any, and the original production should be defined as a fully-staged professional production of the full work before a paying public, not a workshop, concept album, theatre festival performance or backers' performance (those things could be described in the article itself, but they are not original productions. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:02, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Talk:The Red Moon (Johnson and Cole)#Stage work; Musical v.s. Operetta

Hi all. I would appreciate some input at this discussion. FloridaArmy was wanting to describe the work as a musical comedy, but I am advocating for the more generic term "stage work" based on discrepancies among published literature. Per WP:NPOV, I have now documented a neutral presentation of the discrepancy in the article itself in The Red Moon (Johnson and Cole)#Operetta or musical?. I tried to be as balanced and neutral on this issue as possible and provide an overview across a wide range of sources. All opinions are welcome. Best. 4meter4 (talk) 00:03, 8 February 2024 (UTC)