Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 88

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Category mess!

From a hotel computer in the USA.... User:Catalographer has invented several new categories, e.g. Category:Greco-Roman Egypt in popular culture, Category:Operas based on Classical mythology [sic] etc. and is rapidly adding them to a slew of opera articles. In the process, almost invariably deleteting Category:Operas from the articles. I have managed to revert some of them, and have left a message on his/her talk page to please stop deleting this category. Unfortunately, once the cat is removed from an article the change can no longer be found by looking at Special:RecentChangesLinked/Category:Operas. We'll have to systematically go through Special:Contributions/Catalographer to repair the damage. Sigh! --Voceditenore (talk) 15:14, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Uh oh. Another outbreak of the "in popular culture" plague. (Does anybody ever stop to consider what "popular culture" actually means?). --Folantin (talk) 18:38, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
isn't it a good example of oxymoron? (uh...only joking guys....no, please, I beg you, don't call me elitist.....aaaaargh.....) --Smerus (talk) 18:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I was wondering if someone would mention that and you've won the booby prize. As for the subject of the thread, I'm not convinced that Die ägyptische Helena is (a) popular, (b) about Greco-Roman Egypt which I would suggest started with Alexander and the Ptolemies.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
I've "pop"ped the question at this guy's talk page [1], but so far no reply. In other news, Venus, Bacchus and Cupid are now apparently historical figures, at least as far as Cyprus is concerned [2]. --Folantin (talk) 08:17, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
They are part of the mythological history of Cyprus. Anyway I put it under Categories Operas set on Cyprus.I agree with Peter Cohen about Egyptian Helen and I removed the category. Catalographer (talk) 09:28, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Opera not popular but royal court, elite and high culture?

See also popular culture

Some thoughts: Opera (a high culture) had been part of the Western European popular culture (in Italy it continues to be) until it was replaced by Cinema. Especially during the Romantic era , classical mucic played a significant role in national awakening by the use of local folklores,legends and history. Soviet operas by definition belong to Socialist popular culture. Outside of Western Europe, opera is regarded as an elite culture. Chinese opera is populal culture in China but not popular in the Western world.

  • Anyway, since the term is ambiguous, I will turn it into Categories in art and cultureCatalographer (talk) 09:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
So the Soviet opera Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk is 'by definition....Socialist popular culture', is it? And The Nose? And Rothschild's Violin?........If you're going to start categorising, you'd better think hard first.....--Smerus (talk) 17:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
By the way, happy 5770, everybody --Smerus (talk) 17:33, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. Lady Macbeth was the vehicle for a general denunciation of Shostakovich's music by the Communist Party in early 1936. So, there are Soviet-era formalist operas and original Soviet operas (of Socialist realism,Proletkult and Working class culture)Catalographer (talk) 19:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Let's not get into this. "Popular culture" suggests TV, pop music, comics etc. The whole "X in popular culture" craze on Wikipedia started from the "Trivia" sections which accumulated at the end of articles. Nobody really thought too deeply about what "popular culture" meant and the term has been stretched so it has become utterly meaningless. There is absolutely no need for the adjective "popular". It should be "X in the arts", "Cultural references to X" or something like that. --Folantin (talk) 19:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I generally agree. However, what about Category:Operas for television? by this definition, it is popular culture, as well the famous opera singers like Luciano Pavarotti and his popular songs.Catalographer (talk) 19:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Opera is not generally put into the "popular music" category. That's stretching the term so much it becomes meaningless. I just think half the uses of "X in popular culture" haven't been thought through properly. There are much better alternatives. --Folantin (talk) 19:45, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I agree about the name of the Category. We just talk about the definition of popular in art. Operetta is popular music, pieces that use serialism and twelve-tone are not. Compare also Hollywood cinema and European Dogme 95.Catalographer (talk) 19:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Since you aren't using "in popular culture" for a category, it's now a moot point, so won't belabour this. But really, you are conflating several meanings of "popular" and in turn conflating them with "accessible", "enjoyable", "familiar". Operetta music probably is more accessible and familiar to "the people" than 12-tone music, but go out to the street and ask random passers-by to name their favourite operetta or any operetta for that matter. Play them Dein ist mein ganzes Herz and ask them to "name that tune". And no, television shows are not "by definition" popular culture, and that's not what Folantin was implying. I wouldn't consider a TV documentary on Arnold Schoenberg "popular culture", nor the Met's PBS broadcast of Peter Grimes. Voceditenore (talk) 22:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Amahl and the Night Visitors.It was the first opera specifically composed for television in America.[2] The opera is now a popular Christmas classic. English Opera as Popular Culture.

I am not conflating several meanings of popular but I propose sections or articles Opera in popular culture or Opera as popular culture, Opera and society or Sociology of Opera Catalographer (talk) 22:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

The topics are potentially interesting and worthwhile. If the articles are strictly based on a broad range of referenced published work on the actual topic without original research or synthesis, go for it. I would avoid a title like Opera in popular culture, though. Even then, be prepared for the endless unreferenced, drive-by cruft based on "I heard that song in X commercial/cartoon/movie/video game". Voceditenore (talk) 23:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I see. Giuseppe Verdi#Role in the Risorgimento is an example of what I mean Opera and society. Operatic pop is not the best example of Opera in popular culture? Catalographer (talk) 23:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, operatic pop would be an example of that, in my opinion. Like I said, a well-referenced article based on published studies and articles (not conjecture or personal opinion) is fine. You'll find some helpful sources in Nessun Dorma, e.g. [3]. - Voceditenore (talk) 00:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

What about a short list of popular operas?

In the List of important operas there is a sub-list of popular operas.

Is there? Where? Does this refer to the list of ninety-three operas that appeared in every one of the sources consulted? If so, no way is that a list of popular operas - it's a list combining operas that are regarded as important by each of the compilers of each of the lists. --GuillaumeTell 23:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
I meant a new list that may be possible like the short one by Opera America.Catalographer (talk) 06:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Salome (opera) is an important,famous or infamous but not a popular one. Here is a short list by an internet user who searched the internet high and low for a "short list" of the most famous operas, to no avail.Catalographer (talk) 20:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Interesting to note that all the ten operas listed are either operas by Mozart or Italian-language operas, or both. Oh, plus Carmen. --GuillaumeTell 23:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "popular" - many factors go into deciding what's a "popular" or "famous" opera (not necessarily the same thing) and they vary from country to country. The Bartered Bride is enormously popular and famous in the Czech Republic, but rather less so in the US. Number of performances? Number of recordings? Number of Google hits? And how popular? Top 10? Top 20? Top 100? Opera America has produced a list of the 20 most performed operas in North America. Also List_of_important_operas#Lists_consulted lists the 93 operas which appear on all nine lists consulted. Compiling yet another list from scratch is a pretty pointless exercise in subjective judgement (not to mention ethnocentricity) and original research, neither of which belongs on Wikipedia. I certainly hope you aren't planning Category:Popular operas ;-) - Voceditenore (talk) 21:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, as Voceditenore says, there is no ready way to define something as vague as the "popularity" of an opera. Popular where? Popular when? (Meyerbeer was very popular in the 19th century, he isn't now) Popular with how many people? Such a list would be a futile exercise. --Folantin (talk) 22:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Popular nowadays. The Bartered Bride would be listed as popular in the czech wikipedia or in a list of popular or important operas by country. Works by Meyerbeer in a list of popular ones by century. The list by Opera America fits the criteria of a short list of popular operas for the common people. The great and featured list of important operas is for operatic studies and musicology.Catalographer (talk) 06:53, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I think you'd have to go to a lot of effort to make such a list conform with Wikipedia policies - and the result would be much the same as the guesses in that link you provided: Carmen, Mozart (the Da Ponte operas and The Magic Flute), Verdi (most likely mid-period: Traviata, Rigoletto, Trovatore), Puccini (Bohème, Butterfly, Tosca, Turandot) then maybe a couple of other Italian operas, probably The Barber of Seville and Cav & Pag. You probably wouldn't get Wagner or R. Strauss due to the expense and difficulty of staging their operas.--Folantin (talk) 08:02, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
If the Opera America list (Opera_America#Cornerstones) fits your criteria, then there is no need for another list. But again, that list is based on the number of performances an opera is given in North America (largely the US). And even that US-centric list fluctuates over time. In 2002 La bohème and Madama Butterfly were the most frequently performed. The year before, Rigoletto and The Marriage of Figaro tied for top place. The number of productions is also heavily influenced by anniversaries, e.g. Verdi's death, Mozart's birth, etc. etc. The repertoire of charismatic opera singers who can put "bums on seats" also influences programming. At the moment, there are a lot of very good and even great Rossini singers, hence the relatively higher frequency of those productions, even of some of his more obscure operas. This year the Royal Opera House put on Matilde di Shabran "for" Juan Diego Flórez. Every single performance was sold out with lengthy queues of people trying to buy returned tickets, not because M d S is a popular opera, but because he is a very popular singer amongst opera-goers, although I wouldn't say amongst "the common people". There is also this recently added list: Classic 100 opera (ABC) (top 100 opera arias based on a survey of listeners to an Australian classical music station). Note that the top 3 were from Lakmé, Nabucco, and The Pearl Fishers, none of which receive frequent productions nowadays.
The bottom line is that any such list on Wikipedia, has to reproduce lists already published in reliable sources, and even those lists will be are both temporally and geographically skewed. If they're ranked lists, they're even more skewed. What such a list cannot be is one compiled via intuition, original research or a synthesis of published research on the part of Wikipedia's editors. Voceditenore (talk) 08:32, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Addenda re Salome and a global perspective. I've just indulged in a little original research via Operabase. Their database search facility will give all performances and planned performances (worldwide) of a particular opera from 2008 to 2011. Good old Salome, although not listed in the Opera America top 20, actually comes in ahead of two other operas that are on the list - Pagliacci and Faust:
Salome - 391 performances of 75 productions, in 60 cities
Pagliacci - 375 performances of 74 productions, in 67 cities
Faust - 289 performances of 60 productions, in 56 cities
So who's to say that Salome isn't "popular"? Another one that didn't make the Opera America cut is The Merry Widow, but with 563 performances of 62 productions, in 44 cities, it too beats several of the operas on the list. By the way, the indisputed Operabase champion was The Magic Flute with a whopping 1274 performances of 200 productions, in 131 cities, leaving La bohème (1122 performances) and Carmen (1173 performances) in the dust. Voceditenore (talk) 12:38, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Soviet operas

I also want to extract something from the above for serious discussion.

'So, there are Soviet-era formalist operas and original Soviet operas (of Socialist realism,Proletkult and Working class culture)'

Is this in fact so? The articles on Socialist realism and Proletkult do not seem to mention a single opera. And although numerous operas were written during the Soviet era, I am not sure that any of them can really count as popular culture. I doubt whether the man on the Astrakhan omnibus ever whistled any operatic hits by tunesmiths such as Shebalin, Kabalevsky or Maiboroda. And all of the operatic works of composers such as these were no less formalist than those of Shostakovich from a musicological point of view (as opposed of course to a political point of view, where the word 'formalism' was simply a useful stick to beat certain people over the head with). So I really doubt whether we can talk about popular Soviet opera - but I would be interested to see if anyone has any examples. Of course Soviet composers who wanted to write popular music wrote film music and light operas/musical comedies (e.g. Shost's Moscow, Cheryomushki) - and much of of this genre is of good quality musically as well - and there are one or two ballets which are still staged - but not I think operas.......I feel an article on Soviet opera coming on......--Smerus (talk) 19:40, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I used the phrase by definition Socialist popular culture in the political context of the culture of the Soviet Union. I also searched for red operas and I found only the below: Daughter of the Communist Party by the People's Composer Xian Xinghai and Pavlik Morozov opera by Mikhail Ivanovich Krasev. It seems the soviet socialist operas are of poor quality in comparison to the known nowadays Soviet-era Russian operas.Catalographer (talk) 22:47, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
and a third one: The Decembrists/ Decembrists by Yuri Shaporin (Let's see also the complexity of the term Soviet music, Talk:Soviet music)Catalographer (talk) 07:51, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Prokofiev's Semyon Kotko, which I've seen - plenty of tunes there, too. Also The Story of a Real Man, which I don't know. --GuillaumeTell 10:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Copyright violation in Opera Project articles

While catching up on what I missed during August, I came across this message from none other than Julian Budden on Talk:La bohème which pointed out that huge chunks of the article had been copy/pasted (or extremely closely paraphrased) from Grove by former OP member Nrswanson (now indef blocked for sockpuppetry). Fortunately, Folantin promptly fixed it for us. But Nrswanson has a long history of this, and was a prolific "contributor" to opera-related articles. I've made a page where we can start checking his contributions. I've already done some, but it's quite laborious for me as I don't have access to Grove on line and always need to email another editor for the copies of the articles. If any of you have access to Grove online and have a bit of spare time, could you check out User:Voceditenore/Close paraphrase (Grove). Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes. It's a big problem. I've asked Antandrus to e-mail me various bits of Grove for checking but it's going to take a lot of effort. Sigh. --Folantin (talk) 07:51, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
The article on Julian Budden say he died in 2007, so I wonder who signed his name on 2 August 2009.
As to Grove: many local libraries grant access to Grove Online through their membership number; see this page by the State Library of Queensland; maybe one in your neighbourhood does something similar. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I have the printed Opera Grove, so can check things reasonably easily.--GuillaumeTell 08:58, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Ah, on closer look, I think the anon IP was trying to say that Julian Budden was the author of the Grove article, not the message. And I really must get 'round to getting a card for the Swiss Cottage library.;-) But Folantin's right, even with the source text, it's a long and laborious process, trust me, I've already done several. Nevertheless, it has to be done, especially for the Grove copy vios which can really bring the OP into disrepute. Although Nrwanson had been copy/pasting since 2007 (e.g. this from this), he initially had no access to Grove online and tended to do it from other web sites.
I'm going to put a permanent section at the top of the page here with some of the most potentially problematic articles to be checked, as members get the time. They can be struck through as they're done, and I or anyone else can then add more. Double sigh! Voceditenore (talk) 09:37, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I think the Stakhanovite scheme to push through as many articles as possible for WP:DYK might have been the cause of this problem. "Never mind the quality, look how many kilobytes I've added." --Folantin (talk) 12:41, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Nrswanson appears to have plagiarised opera company histories too. See Lake George Opera.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:35, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Update Note: the clean-up page is now at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Subpage for organizing CopyVio Cleanup, all articles to be checked can be found there. Voceditenore (talk) 16:23, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

L'incoronazione di Poppea

As an autumn project I am hoping to expand this Start-class article about an important opera, unless someone else is currently engaged on it. On my part this will be quite a slow burner, but I would hope to have something substantial by mid-November. And...if anyone has any info on soundfiles I'd love to know about it. Brianboulton (talk) 21:03, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Great. I think all the Monteverdi opera articles need overhauling. Maybe I'll try to see what I can do with Orfeo or Ulisse over the next few months. --Folantin (talk) 09:04, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
A big "Great" from me too! I always look forward to Brian's articles. We've made the October Opera(s) of the Month collaboration complementary work on L'Orfeo, L'Arianna, and Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria, as well as requesting articles on several Monteverdi role creators. Voceditenore (talk) 11:43, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

October Opera of the Month

The Opera of the Month collaboration focuses on improving existing articles. We need something quick as October looms. All suggestions welcomed. I'll have very little time in October for this, but here are two suggestions to get the ball rolling.

Best, Voceditenore (talk) 10:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Prefer Monteverdi. I'm not sure there's that much more you could say about Charpentier's Descente. It's an unfinished opera with a mysterious background. --Folantin (talk) 10:54, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

October Composer of the Month

The Composer of the Month collaboration focuses on composers in the opera corpus whose works still lack articles. Suggestions please, tempus fugits. Voceditenore (talk) 10:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Some suggestions...

German Romantics

OR

Zarzuela composers

OR

Women composers

OR

Composers of operas based on Greek mythology

- Voceditenore (talk) 16:02, 27 Sep 2009 (UTC)

You could add Giulio Caccini (1551–1618): Il rapimento di Cefalo to that list. --Folantin (talk) 12:38, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

First cast tables

A question about this has been placed on Talk:La Basoche page, which may be of interest to the Opera Project. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 11:31, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Wagner stub spree

User:Rlendog has just gone on an editing spree and created numerous stubs on Wagner role creators; most of which need references, cats, and other fixes. I'd appriciate some help in tackling the cleanup. I've listed the articles he has created below. Singingdaisies (talk) 22:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

It might be worth also posting the above to Wikipedia Talk:WikiProject_Richard_Wagner. --GuillaumeTell 00:46, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. I didn't realize there was a Wagner project. I left a note there.Singingdaisies (talk) 18:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Singers from Monteverdi operas

Since the operas of the month are Monteverdi operas, might I suggest the following singers (all with articles in Grove) to be added from those operas: Giovanni Gualberto Magli (L'Orfeo), Giovanni Maria Bacchini (L'Orfeo), Francesco Campagnolo (L'Arianna), Maddalena Manelli (Il ritorno d'Ulisse in patria), and Baldassarre Ferri (L'incoronazione di Poppea).Singingdaisies (talk) 05:20, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Category:Operas by setting

  • Note: I'm moving this down here for more prominence and because it's related to the above discussion on categories. – Voceditenore (talk) 22:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

This one seems to have slipped through the net, i.e. it hasn't been discussed here, AFAIK. There's no particular harm in it, but is it useful to anyone? Also, what about operas that are set in more than one country or in no country? Candide, L'Africaine, Manon Lescaut, Billy Budd, et al... --GuillaumeTell 21:12, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Addendum - I see that this has been discussed already - see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Opera/Archive_83 - but without any resolution one way or the other. I notice a bit of redundancy too - Macbeth (opera) appears under both Scotland and the British Isles (and doesn't Act 4 Scene 1 take place in England?). --GuillaumeTell 21:20, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
My own view on this is that it's reasonably harmless, and may conceivably be of use to people But the problem is many of these "setting" cats are ill-thought out and/or misleading. In those cases, I remove them. For example I just removed Category:Operas set in the Low Countries from Jaguarita l'Indienne. It's set in Dutch Guyana which is in South America. The category allegedly includes the colonies of the low countries, which makes it next to useless. The Dutch had colonies in North and South America, Africa, and Asia. The setting cats are also sometimes applied without any real understanding of what the opera is actually about or only a cursory reading of the article. Voceditenore (talk) 23:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, there are all sorts of problems associated with this sort of categorisation by country or region. We risk getting involved in all kinds of national and ethnic disputes. There's also the problem of anachronism (is Dido and Aeneas an "Opera set in Tunisia", for example?). So we should probably limit these categories to only the most obvious, indisputable examples if we are going to have them.--Folantin (talk) 11:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
I wonder of how much value a categorisation scheme Category:Operas by setting might be to a reader (other than as a curio). I suspect many arguments listed in Wikipedia:Overcategorization apply. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:36, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
That was what led me to set up Category:Operas set in Andorra. I was curious to see it would provoke any reaction (it didn't). But useless as it is, it is as justified as any of the others.--Smerus (talk) 19:21, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I hope that you'll forgive my intruding a special case under this heading in preference to starting a new one. For whatever silly reason, I've been adding tags for "Category: Operas set in the United States," which carries an "underpopulated" flag, to various candidates that were missing. Mostly as a result, the total has risen from 20-odd to 46. Dunno whether that is enough to justify removing the flag from the category's page, and even if it is, I'm not comfortable doing so when I've been involved in the expansion, so I thought I'd raise the issue here in hopes that someone more knowledgeable might address it. A related question: the article for Britten's Paul Bunyan is titled Paul Bunyan (operetta) but carries category tags for operas. On the strength of the latter, I included it in "Operas set in the United States"; if that decision was off base, would somebody please fix it? Thanks! --Drhoehl (talk) 21:23, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

First, good of you to raise this here. As you can discern, most of the regulars here are not exactly enthusiastic about the "Operas set in ..." category, but on the other hand we wouldn't at all want to discourage you from populating categories in which you're interested. 46 seems to me to be quite enough to justify removing the flag, whether or not you were the populator (if that's a word). As for Paul Bunyan, it was called an operetta by either Auden or Britten or both, which is why that epithet was used. However, although some works (say, Siegfried) are obviously operas and others (say, The Merry Widow) are obviously operettas, there is a grey area, and many opera companies also stage operettas. It therefore seemed safest to regard operetta as a sub-genre of opera - you'll see that PB is also in the category "operettas", so that we don't need to worry about where the dividing-line, if there is one, is. Hope this helps. --GuillaumeTell 22:00, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it helps greatly, for which many thanks. I'm not sure quite what got into me; usually, I prefer to work on article text and pay little attention to categories, as I find the universe they occupy to be an impenetrable morass. (Tip of the hat to the opera project: the outline on the project page is the best guidance I've seen on the subject.) I guess I was overcome with some altruistic sense that when a category exists, we have a duty to our users to make its listing as complete as we can. Or maybe I was just ready for some mindless fun? Anyhow, I appreciate your gracious and comprehensive answer, quickly offered! --Drhoehl (talk) 23:32, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Capitalisation of French, uh, Latin titles

Anyone interested might like to look at the discussion at Talk:Oedipus rex (opera). FWIW, there is only one other title in Category:Latin-language operas, and Opera Grove goes for Oedipus rex. --GuillaumeTell 20:20, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Royal Theatre of Turin

I spotted today that User:Gryffindor had moved Teatro Regio di Torino (but not, AFAICS, any other opera house names) to the above last month. I queried this at his/her talk page and received a rather unsatisfactory reply on mine. What's the next step? --GuillaumeTell 21:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Voceditenore has already left an apt comment at Talk:Royal Theatre of Turin to which I have added my two cents. I suggest we discuss the issue there and invite User:Gryffindor to participate. Hopefully that will bare some fruit.Singingdaisies (talk) 21:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
Update: Has now been moved by GuillaumeTell to Teatro Regio (Turin), as per talk page consensus. We should probably use a similar title format for for the current Teatro Regio di Parma, i.e. Teatro Regio (Parma) - Voceditenore (talk) 18:14, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

This makes sense to me. Viva-Verdi (talk) 20:36, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

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