Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Philosophy/Archive 24

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Wikiphilosophers: a new Wikimedia project

Dear thinkers and philosophers, this evening I submitted a proposal for a new project within Wikimedia called Wikiphilosophers. Wikiphilosophers is really nothing more than a place to express philosophical ideas, engage in dialogue about them, and thus arrive at new insights. It is the place to learn about new or reintroduced philosophical concepts from others. I'm curious what you guys think of the idea and I'd love to hear from you! Kind regards, S. Perquin (talk) ^{(discover the power of thankfulness!)} – 00:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Instant crank magnet. Sorry. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:17, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean? I had this idea of a "philosopedia" for a long time, but I've just discovered since last week that apparently you can submit proposals for new Wikimedia projects! Why do you think it would not work or be a good idea? S. Perquin (talk) ^{(discover the power of thankfulness!)} – 11:12, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

What you are proposing is essentially a philosophy forum. And given the tendency of existing Wikimedia projects to attract all sorts of eccentrics trying to publicise their (generally uninformed and ill-thought-out) all-encompassing 'philosophical' solutions to the worlds problems (real or imaginary), it would, I suggest, rapidly become overrun with such material, to the detriment of anything relevant to the pursuit of actual knowledge. Furthermore, any forum run by the WMF would, of necessity, require moderation (for legal reasons, if no other), and since the WMF doesn't provide such moderation, this would fall to volunteers. Even if such volunteers could be found, I doubt they'd stick around for long. I speak from personal experience, having had multiple encounters with self-proclaimed 'philosophers' who have mistakenly taken Wikipedia for the ideal place to promote their wild ideas. Almost without exception, such 'philosophers' have proven to be largely devoid of critical thinking, or worse, and almost entirely devoid of any communication skills that don't involve expounding on why they are right about everything, all the time.

Feel free to disagree with the above, if you like. But can I ask that in doing so you provide sufficient detail as to how you intent to keep the signal-to-noise ratio under control, and to prevent your project from becoming overrun with fixers-of-the-world promoting their perpetual-motion solutions to the energy crisis, cures for imaginary diseases, and routes to world peace through the compulsory consumption of broccoli soup. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:46, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your response! Indeed, there are still many things to consider regarding Wikiphilosophers, such as what quality standards a philosophical idea, concept or theory should meet. My idea is that every philosophical idea should meet a number of requirements yet to be determined. I would like to think about this with others. One aspect is that it must be a serious idea, which according to the writer could really bring about a change or innovation in philosophical thinking. Another idea is that all philosophical ideas, for example, should be substantiated with references to research or studies. There may be room for philosophical ideas that lean more towards the alternative side, but they should not become too wild or exaggerated. Those are also things that should be determined with the community. It's complex, but I believe Wikiphilosophers could have serious potential within the Wikimedia Foundation. That's why I'd like to brainstorm with others about it. S. Perquin (talk) ^{(discover the power of thankfulness!)} – 16:33, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Another idea that comes to mind, for example, is for users to give each other substantive reviews about their philosophical ideas, and that the overall rating is displayed at the top of the article. It really needs to be thought about together, I think, so I hope there are people who also see potential in my idea for Wikiphilosophers. The wiki offers many possibilities and opportunities, but there are also many drawbacks and things to think about. Rome wasn't built in a day. S. Perquin (talk) ^{(discover the power of thankfulness!)} – 16:40, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

We could also allow ideas to be challenged by people by giving them labels, for example, "Perpetual motion", "Imaginary cure" or "Idealistic solution". This would be displayed at the top of the page. It could then be discussed on the dialogue page (talk page). I think solutions could be devised for everything! But, as I said before, there are still many things to think about... S. Perquin (talk) ^{(discover the power of thankfulness!)} – 16:52, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Bloomsbury Encyclopaedia of Philosophers?

Does anybody have access to the Bloomsbury Encyclopaedia of Philosophers -- specifically, the article below? If so, I would be most grateful for a copy to help with an article I'm working on about its subject.

• Gill, David. "Heurtley, Walter Abel (1882–1955)". Bloomsbury Encyclopaedia of Philosophers. Bloomsbury Philosophical Library. doi:10.5040/9781350052536-0298. Retrieved 2024-01-07.

Thanks, UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 09:21, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Leucippus FAC

Leucippus is currently a candidate for featured article status. Reviews and other feedback are appreciated. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:29, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

FAC of Knowledge

Hello, I wanted to let you know that I have nominated the article Knowledge for featured article status. So far, there has been little to no response from reviewers and I was wondering whether some of the editors here are inclined to have a look. The nomination page can be found at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Knowledge/archive1. If you have the time, I would appreciate your comments. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:27, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

BCE/CE vs. BC/AD in Ancient Philosophy

Hey all,

If any of you have views on BC/AD vs. BCE/CE, would you consider weighing in at Talk:Plato#Era and Talk:Aristotle#Era?

I trust someone will correct me if my read on this is wrong, but the latter seem to be standard in the recent academic literature that articles are supposed to reflect. There’s no chance of confusion, but I think it makes our coverage look unnecessarily out-of-sync with current norms.

More generally, departing from best scholarly practices in order to use less inclusive, religious terminology just makes no sense to me. Another editor, however, has very strong feelings to the contrary and requests an explicit discussion on the talk page.

Cheers, Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 19:48, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I vote against anyone with strong feelings on this topic. (smile) I have no big problems with either option, but for form's sake I'll give you a counter argument which is specifically for articles like Plato and Aristotle. First, culturally and linguistically the two systems are just the same system. It is purely a name change. Most general readers can't really even follow the reasoning, so the point of principle is not really a biggy. Secondly and more importantly, I think that these two articles are ones that we want to avoid becoming inaccessible to non-specialist readers. Whatever we think "in principle", BC/AD is better known to general non-academic readers, and such readers can and should be readers of this type of article. So it all comes down to how much evil can come from a name. Academics use both systems and give us no simple guidance. Classicists do perhaps tend to use old fashioned systems a bit more? I tend to think BCE is more used in our specialized history articles, rather than in articles like these but it is just a feeling.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:07, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

If the more recent set of terms actually is confusing to readers, that would be an excellent reason to prefer the older. My own sense, however, is folks know the meaning, whatever terms they use themselves.

And yes, the only reason the change works is because the actual dates are preserved. I find it inappropriate to speak of events happening "in the year of our Lord" (unless one's audience is known to be Christian), but it's an intellectual annoyance, not at all a personal harm.

If, as you suggest, it emerges that there is not a clear consensus on best practices, I'll have no problem dropping the issue.

But, if there is a best practice, let's follow it! The change is quick and easy to make.

Cheers, Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 20:37, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

While this isn't the place to re-litigate the general merits of the two systems, given that Patrick has brought up "in the year of our Lord", I feel somewhat justified mentioning that AD means "in the year of our Lord" in roughly the same way that Wednesday means "the day of Odin". --Trovatore (talk) 21:54, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Agree with you Trovatore, and I made the exact same type of statement at the Talk:Plato#Era and Talk:Aristotle#Era pages in response to the "Christian bias" argument, a talking point that has been through the ringer many times in debates such as Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/BCE-CE_Debate. If anything, I see it as more inappropriate to selectively neutralize the Christian element of the calendar but not the pre-christian pagan polytheistic elements of the same calendar in a bid for "religious neutrality", which in effect results in targeting one religious belief system but not others, which itself is religiously biased. — Crumpled Fire • contribs • 22:07, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

That was not really my point. My point was that there is really no religious content here in the first place. Very few people (except perhaps those already sensitized to the issue) even notice the origin of the term AD. --Trovatore (talk) 22:35, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

The difference that I see is that Christianity is a living and sometimes highly charged cultural and political phenomenon. (I speak from a U.S. perspective, but this is not unique to my country.) Although I've not done any research on the origin of the newer terms, I am assuming that this is no small part of the reason they were coined and, against the odds, have won widespread acceptance, particularly in scholarly writing. Factoids about Odin, Saturn, and co. are located at a considerable historical remove. But imagine, by contrast, a dating system that expressly declares us to all be the children of Allah, or all subjects of the one true Catholic Church, or all hopelessly lost together in a world without god. I would venture to say that large segments of the population would strenuously object to (entirely unnecessarily, mind you!) building those kinds of universal religious claims into a calendar that is supposed to work for everyone just to organize historical material and keep track of dates.

What is relevant in this context, however, is just that there is broad acceptance of BCE/CE as a replacement for BC/AD. Or am I wrong about this? I would think the question we should be trying to answer is whether or not there is a strong enough consensus in the relevant literature in this particular area of scholarship to warrant implementing my proposed change. Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 22:37, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Christianity is living and highly charged, but AD is just not associated with Christianity to any significant extent. --Trovatore (talk) 22:52, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Putting all other aspects of the discussion aside I agree with Torvatore and Crumpled Fire that the terms are not ones which imply religion to the general reader, who is not being silly. I think it is important to include that qualification. I suppose what PatrickJWelsh is referring to is the well-known "culture war" dynamic where people become polarized and look for things to be annoyed about (war on Christmas, cultural appropriation, ...whatever). I don't think WP can spend too much time worrying about that type of dynamic because it will continue to seek new things to be upset about no matter what we do.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:11, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Once again, I gladly concede that this is silly. I am genuinely embarrassed to have taken the bait. My own (entirely anecdotal) experience, however, is that even folks who don't know the Latin know the sectarian bias. (AD: After [Christ's] Death? Why not, makes sense in English! — just per a dinner conversation last night.)

Also, it should not be relevant, but I feel the need to state that I would have been totally cool with someone who had done basically any work improving Wikipedia's coverage of ancient philosophy, or anything at all related, making these changes in the course of a general edit. I would not have given it hardly a second thought. But that does not appear to be what is going on here. The editor insisting upon an individual, contextually specific assessment has so far demonstrated zero interest in anything remotely connected to Aristotle scholarship, and declines to engage on these terms.

Please also note that I have closed out the discussion at the Plato talk page. Discussion, I suggest, should take place at the Aristotle talk page. My intention posting here was only to alert other more knowledgeable editors of the discussion, not to relocate it to this more general forum.

As always, all best, cheers, etc. — Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 16:45, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

There have been various contentious, failed requests to cater to BCE/CE site-wide on Wikipedia in the past (e.g. Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/BCE-CE_Debate), so a request which would impose a standard of BCE/CE to the limited scope of a specific topic subset is never a good idea. If you feel this strongly about using BCE/CE, you can make a request to change the Wikipedia guideline at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers. In terms of characterizing me as having very strong feelings about it, I will say that I was not the one who arbitrarily changed the era to suit my preference on Aristotle and Essence without first attaining consensus (as per the guideline at WP:ERA), I simply reverted the changes per the guideline. I have never imposed an era change to any article other than to revert other users' undiscussed, non-consensus changes of one era to the other. My arguments for why I disagree that it's appropriate to favor BCE/CE have been added to the Talk:Plato#Era and Talk:Aristotle#Era pages mentioned by User:PatrickJWelsh. Just to stress my view, I am not arguing that we should change all established uses of BCE/CE to BC/Ad on Philosophy-related articles, only that we shouldn't change the established uses of BC/AD to BCE/CE. It is only the OP who is suggesting we change existing established uses of one era notation in favor of another.— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 20:37, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, although I do happen to think the MOS should be changed, I lack the patience to argue that case against institutional inertia.

For now, let's just follow what it currently says, which is to work towards consensus on articles where there is a proposed change to prefer either of two acceptable options. And, as always, follow the best sources available.

Cheers, Patrick J. Welsh (talk) 20:49, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement!

Hello, Please note that Community service, which is within this project's scope, has been selected as one of the Articles for improvement. The article is scheduled to appear on Wikipedia's Community portal in the "Articles for improvement" section for one week, beginning today. Everyone is encouraged to collaborate to improve the article. Thanks, and happy editing! Delivered by — MusikBot talk 00:05, 4 March 2024 (UTC) on behalf of the AFI team