Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Snooker/Archives/2021/August

2021–2022 Ronnie O'Sullivan snooker season

I've seen these articles pop up quite a bit, and I struggle to see how an individual season for an individual player is particularly notable, outside of a player winning the Triple Crown, or being particularly noteworthy. However, the idea we now have an article on 2021–2022 Ronnie O'Sullivan snooker season, seems crazy after only a couple days of the season. Does anyone have any further thoughts on these articles? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:07, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

The existence of the old one provides the reason to create the new one. They probably all ought to go to AfD on the basis that they're excessively detailed. Really Professional snooker career of Ronnie O'Sullivan should be sufficient, with perhaps a single statistical article covering his whole career. Nigej (talk) 15:31, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd be happy to do it BTW Nigej (talk) 15:52, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

We could try just redirecting them all to Professional snooker career of Ronnie O'Sullivan.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:33, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

We could, but an Afd would effectively stop the articles being recreated. Nigej (talk) 21:40, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

New articles are being created: 2016/2017 Ronnie O'Sullivan snooker season. Nigej (talk) 21:39, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Pretty much all sourced to the WPBSA. There isn't enough secondary coverage for this kind of article. Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:02, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd be happy to be WP:BOLD, redirect the lot, and then chuck to AfD if they get reverted Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:10, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

The naming is also hugely inconsistent. We have:

• 2021–22 Ronnie O'Sullivan snooker season
• 2020–21 Ronnie O'Sullivan snooker season
• 2019–20 Ronnie O'Sullivan snooker season
• 2018/2019 Ronnie O'Sullivan snooker season
• 2017/2018 Ronnie O'Sullivan snooker season
• 2016/2017 Ronnie O'Sullivan snooker season
• 2015/2016 Ronnie O'Sullivan snooker season
• 2014/2015 Ronnie O'Sullivan snooker season

I personally prefer the dashes, if we are to keep these articles. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 15:18, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and boldly redirected the latest article - with the view to do the same for the remainder. If this is undone, I will take to AfD. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:11, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I created last four of these articles and I disagree with removing them. Personally I think there should be more of them for other successfull players. But that's only my opinion and I won't object if that's breaking any rules. So definitely I'm not gonna undone it. Peteri1994 (talk) 20:15, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Do you have any citations that describe the subject so that it would pass WP:GNG? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:29, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

No I don't. I just liked the idea. Peteri1994 (talk) 21:13, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there is any need for these articles to be kept or any further ones to be created what is the point really ?. Professional snooker career of Ronnie O'Sullivan is more than enough for all the information needed with more added all the time. 89.204.180.129 (talk) 00:30, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and redirected the lot of these. Let me know if I've missed any. I did notice one was moved to draft, but the template listed cross-namespace to that draft, which isn't great. I've removed all entries from it. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:31, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

More notability questions

Hi! Me again - I've been looking through our articles and is there any need for us to have individual articles for both Q School and the Challenge Tour for each individual event? These generally only have notes on the dates and then the draw. I propose that these combined into single items (i.e. no 2019/20 Challenge Tour 1 article, but a 2019/20 Challenge Tour (snooker) article, as well as (2020 Q School (snooker) etc.)

I can't imagine there was enough press about the individual events to write anything more than a stub with a draw on each one. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:56, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

I think that Q School and the Challenge Tour should have their own articles as both exist for different reasons. Rillington (talk)

It's the particular event articles that I don't believe meet WP:GNG, Rillington such as 2018/19 Challenge Tour 1. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:21, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Templates

On that note, we have templates for Template:2018–19 snooker season etc. I'd like to propose we cull these down a little. For instance, currently it's listed as:

In my eyes, when we are talking about the 2018-19 snooker season, we are talking about the professional snooker tour on this season. Otherwise, we should be including things like the English Amateur Championship and the IBSF World Snooker Championship as well as 2019 World Women's Snooker Championship etc.

I have created articles such as the 2018 in cue sports to cover the amateur, women's and seniors game (as well as pool and billiards), but I feel like we are including items into these templates that aren't really part of the traditional snooker season for professional play. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:22, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

I'd certainly retain Challenge Tour 2018/2019 and Challenge Tour 2019/2020 which pretty much cover the two seasons. The individual event articles should be deleted, the higher level articles could contain short descriptions of the individual events but I suspect that no one is really that interested. The same might well be true of the Q School events. Merge into a single article (which, unlike the Challenge Tour, doesn't exist currently), perhaps covering the later rounds. Personally I'd be happy to see all the Seniors events consolidated into a single article too. Nigej (talk) 18:45, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Even Snooker Scene only had a page and a half on the three Q School events this year. Unless someone uncovers significant coverage in independent reliable sources, it seems to me that Challenge Tour, Q School and Seniors circuit can be suitable covered in one article per season each. We should also have a bit of discussion about what to include in the template box - for recent years there would be a logic in restricting it to "professional tour" events, but for older seasons there probably isn't an easy demarcation. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:28, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

On this, I've moved 2019–20 Challenge Tour, and will start expanding it and redirecting the original event articles in time. I may need a little help confirming exactly what parts of the results need to be moved across - I'll be putting in a summary as to who won each event, but I don't see the need for brackets for the event.

I'll also do something for Q School in time. If someone fancies doing up something for the seniors tour I'd appreciate it. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:23, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

As I've been working on the 2019/20 season, here's what I've got so far: {{2019–20 snooker season}}. I still need to make something for the Q School for the season (and also promote the ranking points/list), but otherwise it should be all together. Let me know what you think. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:42, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

In addition, is there any reason to have Snooker world ranking points 2019/2020 and Snooker world rankings 2019/2020? Could we not merge these? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:21, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and opened a merge discussion regarding this. This would be with the view to update all other articles if there was consensus for that. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:44, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

I've created a base for this at User:Lee Vilenski/Snooker world rankings 2019/20, but I'm having a few issues. We would no longer require the cut-off points for the second rankings list table, which would also remove our stretching off the page on most monitors. The issue is that these are done by some complicated table, and I'm not sure what would need to be culled to remove these columns. Could someone take a look? On the plus side, from the above discussion, I've created and expanded both 2019 Q School and 2019–20 Challenge Tour, which I'd recommend be used as a template, and redirect pages similarly across other years these events pop up. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:49, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Chronology of ranking tournaments

We have a table here: List of snooker players by number of ranking titles#Chronology of ranking tournaments, providing a sort of visualisation of all the ranking and minor-ranking tournaments thta have ever been player. The table is getting very unwieldy (and is out of date) and I'm of the view that it can be put out of its misery and be deleted. It seems to be in the wrong place anyway, and seems surplus to the List of snooker ranking tournaments and List of minor-ranking tournaments articles. Thoughts? Nigej (talk) 12:44, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, at the very best, it's on the wrong article. I think it's a WP:NOTSTATS issue, and should be deleted. A note of how the amount of ranking events changing over time might be a funky graph for an article such as List of snooker ranking tournaments, but otherwise, cull. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:08, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

I have deleted it. Nigej (talk) 06:08, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Three-letter code for sport countries in snooker

Hello. I just want to raise a couple of questions related to codes. Is the three-letter code after a player's name really necessary on this wikipedia? If yes, which set of codes shall be used? My concerns are the following:

1. I didn't find any source supporting that WST/WPBSA is using a set of codes for their players' sport countries. (Update: The code set exists.)

2. It seems that currently many snooker tournament pages on this wikipedia are using the FIFA codes for sport countries. There are notable differences between FIFA codes and IOC codes. One example related to snooker is Hossein Vafaei. When he competes at Asian Indoor and Martial Arts Games, the country code is IRI in accordance with IOC. When he competes at 2021 British Open, the country code for Iran is listed as IRN.

3. What about Darryl Hill representing the Isle of Man, which does not have a code assigned by neither FIFA nor IOC. So CGF codes then?

--阿pp (talk) 13:36, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I suspect we're generally using ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 codes. No reason for us to be using IOC or FIFA since snooker isn't covered by either. Nigej (talk) 13:50, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 is definitely not the codes currently used on pages like 2021 British Open. In fact using it might cause more trouble. IOC and FIFA both use GER for Germany, but in ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 it is DEU. Also, Switzerland will be CHE if using ISO, instead of SUI by IOC and FIFA. --阿pp (talk) 13:59, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

True. Perhaps we're just using a random selection. Not sure that the WP:MOS offers any advice. Nigej (talk) 14:11, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure on the details of which we are using, but they are indeed necessary per MOS:ACCESS, specifically MOS:FLAG. This has been a change made due to the supreme amount of flagcruft about. I think we simply copy from world snooker, so Hossien Vafaei is listed as IRN, Mark Allen as NIR, etc. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:16, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

However Lucas Klechers is DEU (https://livescores.worldsnookerdata.com/Players/PlayerDetails/14466/39709/lukas-kleckers/british-open-2021) and Alexander Ursenbacher is CHE (https://livescores.worldsnookerdata.com/Players/PlayerDetails/14466/2858/alexander-ursenbacher/british-open-2021) both per ISO 3166-1 alpha-3. Nigej (talk) 14:25, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @Lee Vilenski: Moments ago I also find these profile pages and it brings another issue. Scotland is listed as SCT on the pages instead of SCO currently used on wikipedia. STEPHEN MAGUIRE (SCT). --阿pp (talk) 14:27, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Fair enough - I can't say I care too much what we use, so long as we are within MOS. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:34, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I suggest we add something related to codes in here. --阿pp (talk) 14:44, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Now it's added here. --阿pp (talk) 15:23, 19 August 2021 (UTC)