Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Snooker/Archives/2021/May

Why are flags being removed from one players finals sections ?.

I noticed that flags have been removed from Shaun Murphy's page why has this happened please ?. It seems rather unusual. What is the reason please ?.

Many Thanks 178.167.216.83 (talk) 14:34, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

MOS:FLAG. I don't really see why we are pushing for flags in these sections, they don't add anything to the finals. The articles themselves (with proper {{flagathlete}} templates for first use) use this to discuss the wide range of nationalities competing, but you'll notice things such as century breaks, where they aren't representing a nation should now be removed.

I see the career finals being similar, as noting what player nationalities of the players they were competing against is quite flagWP:CRUFTy. I would recommend removing from all player profiles. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Personally I think you are wrong. Flags are used in the "Opponent in the finals" section of sports like Snooker, Darts and Tennis and they are used for the Runners-up in the wins section of every golf players profile pages on Wikipedia and for all golf tournaments. I do not think Snooker should be any different and should use the flags in career finals sections for sure. It does not look right without them imho. Also I have never been a fan of the flags being removed from the century breaks section either tbh. 178.167.216.83 (talk) 15:04, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

WP:Other stuff exists is generally regarded as a weak argument - we can break the rules because someone else is breaking them too. Looking at the specific issue at hand, I can't see that Shaun Murphy#Career finals is any the worse for not having flags against the "Opponent in the final". OK I don't now know from this article that Matthew Couch is English, but I'm not sure that's important. The Murphy article doesn't tell me anything else about him, so if I'm interested I can find those details in his article. I'd be in favour of removing flags from the "Career finals" section for all players. Nigej (talk) 18:10, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

It's specifically mentioned at MOS:FLAGCRUFT, that we shouldn't just slap a flag on an item and call it a day. They shouldn't be used at a detriment (instead) of using a word, but there is little that matters that Murphy lost to Selby at this year's world championship,and that Selby was English. If it was super important that he was English, we should have a separate column for nationality, but I don't see how it's relevant.

We do have a MOS for this exact purpose, but with Nigej, I'd be with removing for all players, and even as far as contacting other wikiprojects for removing it wholesale across those other articles you suggested. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 19:11, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Scottish Challenge

Does anybody have any information on the "Regal Scottish Challenge" title of 1993? A sequence of edits has added this information, but I can't find any mention of it in the accompanying source. Unfortunately the editor omitted a page number. Betty Logan (talk) 00:23, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

@DooksFoley147: I notice you have also added this title to the John Higgins article. If you are the anonymous IP editor can you please tell me which page number the title appears on? Betty Logan (talk) 00:26, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

• Unless somebody can confirm that this event is an authentic professional event I am going to pull it in 24 hours. I realise that snooker history is patchy, but this event is not mentioned by the attributed source. Betty Logan (talk) 23:27, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi I have a friend looking into this. I am lead to believe the source is from Snooker Scene the other one was added in error not by him I may say. He will not be able to access the material until the weekend because of his work commitments. I should know by Sunday ok ?. 92.251.152.178 (talk) 06:52, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

BennyOnTheLoose - you have any ideas mate? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:45, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

A look through NewsBank and the British Newspaper Archive turned up only this, from Aberdeen Press and Journal, 22 September 1993, page 20: "Snooker. Regal Challenge (Motherwell Civic Centre) - R. O'Sullivan (Eng) beat J. Higgins (Sco) 6-5." That's the whole content, no mention of whether it's a final. If anyone has the November 1993 Snooker Scene there might be something in there. I'll add it to my list of stuff to check at the British Library, but won't be there for a while as there are still limited slots available. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:25, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Also appears in the Guardian https://www.newspapers.com/clip/77201715/the-guardian/ Presumably played on 21 Sep, the day before the start of the main event. Probably some sort of curtain-raiser, perhaps just a single exhibition-style match between the two youngsters. Nigej (talk) 09:06, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Nigej you no idea if it was an exhibition that is only opinion I don't think they would bother putting in the result of an exhibition in papers why would they bother ?. 31.200.179.231 (talk) 12:19, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Surely it is just an opinion that it isn't an exhibition. We have literally no details other than a score. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:31, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

It's true. I've no idea that it was "a single exhibition-style match" but neither have I any evidence that it wasn't. Just a single match is reported in the Guardian and it doesn't say it's a final, just "Regal Challenge", so how can we include it in Ronnie's list of "Non-ranking finals"? (which has a reference which doesn't mention the event at all). Nigej (talk) 12:39, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

It's worth commenting that we also need some sort of inclusion criteria; we can't just have the title of beating Dave in the local club competition. It would have to be a fully professional tournament to fit under non-ranking finals. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:41, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

2021/2022 Snooker Season

Hi has anyone drafted a calendar for next season yet please ?. as I know the provisional calendar was announced yesterday. I saw it on twitter and I am sure World Snooker had something on their website about it. Sorry if people think this is rushed. Many Thanks 178.167.216.83 (talk) 14:20, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

My apologies to all involved i actually just found it. It has been created already of course. It would have helped if I opened my eyes first. 178.167.216.83 (talk) 14:25, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I would presume the Championship League Snooker in July would be a ranking event as it is played in 3 sections like last season. The non-ranking version of the event runs until April under a different format. Would anyone object to the July event being changed to a ranking event ?. 178.167.216.83 (talk) 14:28, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

We are completely speculating at this point. We should be waiting for an official calendar. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:48, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

I know that in fairness I take your point it is more than likely a ranking event though with the layout but I suppose we will have to wait for confirmation to be sure on it 178.167.216.83 (talk) 15:07, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Is the WST Pro Series event gone from the calendar or is there just no date for it at this moment does anyone know ?. 178.167.216.83 (talk) 15:22, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Todays announcement: https://wst.tv/2021-22-provisional-calendar/ confirms that "The season will start with the Championship League in July, which will be a ranking event open to all 128 tour players" Nigej (talk) 15:03, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Cell colours in career finals table

Please see the Ranking finals table in this test edit where I'm proposing to extend the cell colour into the second column for clarity. I think it's not immediately obvious that the numbers increment separately for Winner places and Runner-up places and, without the colouration, we have what looks like a random column of numbers: 1, 2, 1, 3, 4, 2, 5, 3, 6, 7, 8, 4, etc. Rodney Baggins (talk) 13:16, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

I think both columns should be part of the same header. There's a good argument that the number should be the first column, it's a bit weird to be second. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:38, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Definitely an improvement IMO. The oddity really is that we include both wins and runners-up in the same table, when you might think that two tables would be better. If we are to stick to one composite "finals" table, I'd go for this style. Nigej (talk) 14:52, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

What are you talking about it looking like an oddity the winners and runner-up when both are used in the same table ?.. It is the same in Tennis and Darts. This would be pure madness to change or replace. Why not look at other sports again wins and runner-up has to be kept in one table what is the point of creating two ?. I would also leave Winner or Runner-up first and the number definitely in the second column. 92.251.231.58 (talk) 23:05, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm afraid that just following other sports parrot-fashion is not always a good idea. We need to be challenging the status quo and asking "is this really the best?". Often we'll conclude that it is, but sometimes we'll go for a change. Nigej (talk) 06:10, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

@Nigej: The idea of having them both in the same table is that you get a chronological list and you can see the number of consecutive wins versus the number of consecutive runner-up places, which might be of interest. For example, in Selby's ranking finals table, you can see that he had 11 consecutive wins and would have had a record 12th if he'd won the shoot out in February. My only issue with the table is that the No. column does not match up clearly with the Outcome column without extending the cell colour across. I would like to reach a consensus on that change. @Lee Vilenski: The reason they are separate columns and the No. column comes second is surely because the Outcome is the main differentiator (Winner/Runner-up) and the number then increments according to the value in the Outcome column. I don't really see any advantage in combining them and it might interfere with the sorting process (with it being a sortable table). Rodney Baggins (talk) 10:42, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

My big issue is that these aren't sortable tables. I've made a version I think is suitable, that fits with WP:DTT and is sortable. See what you think about User:Lee Vilenski/sandbox. I don't know why we are counting the number of titles, rather than the total number of finals. I'm open to reordering it slightly, but this way will give options to sort by date (the years column), wins/runner-ups and opponent. Rodney Baggins, I realise this might be a bit of work, but I feel if we can get the gold standard, we can update articles as we go. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:47, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Personally I think that numbering the finals would be a big mistake. Why have the number 30 next to Selby's recent win when the much more important thing is that it's his 20th ranking title and that won't be obvious from your proposed style. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "these aren't sortable tables" when they clearly are. Nigej (talk) 16:48, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know it it's the much more important thing, considering the whole section is talking specifically about finals. I get the idea, that we want to depict the amount of titles won, or at least how many titles they had won up to that point. Let me have a think on that, maybe we should have the date or similar as the row title?

The thing I was commenting on about sorting is that we are quite indescriminate about which columns we allow to be sortable. Is it really suitable to sort by the final score (which would just give the amount of frames won by the player in the final, not how many frames they were required to win), or the reference list?

A couple of items above, we discussed removal of flags from the player names. It's worth mentioning that if they are populated with flags (as they are on Selby), if you sort by name, it actually sorts by country, which would be another reason to remove the flags. Maybe I have overdid this a little, I do think there is some legs on getting these tables perfect though. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:07, 8 May 2021 (UTC)