Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Streetcars/Archive: 2004

Welcome

Welcome to the Talk page for Wikipedia:WikiProject Streetcars. This should become a great place to talk over our ideas and work out our differences.

I am from Richmond, Virginia, where Frank J. Sprague is credited with creating the first successful electric trolley-powered streetcar system on some of our 7 hills in 1887-1888. The last streetcars operated here in 1949. However, Richmond has plans underway here for a heritage streetcar, such as currently described in the Wikipedia article streetcar.

Please enter new messages at the end of the page. I hope we can have some fun here. Happy Rails!!Vaoverland 23:09, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC}

Project title and scope

I don't believe the title of this new project is consistent with its scope. The title suggests a general involvement with streetcars/light-rail/trams/whatever. But the scope seems to imply that the project is really only interested in former streetcar systems. Could I suggest that either:

• the project title is changed to 'WikiProject Historic Streetcars', or
• the scope is changed to include the many current, new and proposed future systems

If it is the latter, I'd certainly be interested in helping out. If the former, I wish you good luck. -- Chris j wood 16:18, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I can't speak for the initiators of the project, but the new articles Trolley, Streetcar and Subway all deal with past and present. I think that they want the project to advance historic streetcars more than we now see them, but not exclusively. Just my impression. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 16:45, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Here is a draft of how we could redefine scope to be more inclusive. It is perhaps a bit wordy, comments?:

Scope

(first DRAFT revision) This WikiProject aims primarily to expand Wikipedia coverage of urban and interurban public transport rail services, including streetcar, interurban light rail and similar systems. We want to expand information and articles to include historical, current, and future people, companies, technology, and systems. Initially, we will include bus rapid transit, subways, metro, monorail, and heavier commuter rail services. Some of these may form the basis later for a split as the streetcars project progresses. Essentially, we are limiting subjects to land-based transportation of people the majority of whom are traveling 40 miles or less one-way to and from home, school, and places of employment on services which utilize a dedicated right-of-way.

That sounds pretty good. Mackensen (talk) 23:03, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'd remove the last bit; as I understand it, interurbans were sometimes used for longer trips. -User:SPUI

Umm... well if the project is streetcars, not rapid transit, or mass transit or urban transit, I can't see the logical scope including bus rapid transit, monorails, commuter rail, and only peripherally, subways or metros. I mean, a streetcar runs in a street (duh!). Light rail is a reasonable extension, but not other things. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 01:39, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Interurbans were pieces of streetcar systems, nothing like modern commuter rail systems. Sometimes a streetcar company built its line for a long distance, and sometimes a separate company built the interurban. As for subways, those definitely relate to streetcars - the first one in the US (Boston's) was built to take streetcars underground in the downtown area. Ones built from scratch like DC's might not apply to the project though.--SPUI 01:43, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, I'll disagree that interurban were "pieces" or extensions of streetcar systems. In general (with notable exceptions) the interurban company was a lightweight competitor to steam railroads, leasing the tracks of streetcar systems (or rapid transit systems) to reach downtown; they definitely have that important relationship. But like elevated trains that operated on city streets, they were not streetcars themselves. Having said that, I'm more interested in helping accomplish some of the tasks of this project—define it any way the participants like, but including bus rapid transit and monorails is stretching "streetcars" further than I can. -- Cecropia | explains it all ®

I'm most familiar with New Jersey, in which there was one big company, Public Service. Originally there were a bunch of smaller systems that were brought together and linked using what are normally known as interurbans, connecting its systems. Also, interurban until today redirected to light rail, which is a modern term for streetcars. --SPUI 03:55, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The project has brought up some important Wikineeds, essentially the necessity of not submerging the US experience in transit to the Eurasian experience (A Tram Named Desire, The Taking of Pelham Ace Deuce Tray), but that is tangential to "streetcars." -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 01:39, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I will buy the concept that bus rapid transit, subways, metro, monorail, and heavier commuter rail services are generally outside our scope. However, I believe that the electric interurbans are generally accepted by the followers of the streetcars in the U.S., since most used rails of the local streetcar systems in populated areas. I would ask that we include the interurbans in this project. May I assume that everyone agrees that cablecars (IE San Francisco) and funicular inclines (IE Monongahela and Duquesne Inclines in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA, may also be included? Alao, I was trying to define local transportation as opposed to long distance travel, assuming we need to. Comments?

Try this one for revised wording of Project Scope folks:

Ideas for reintroducing tram in Mexican town.

I am an architect in Chicago, originally from San Miguel de Allende, Mexico, a very charming, but very crowded colonial town. I love this little town but it's going down the drain fast -little planning, too much real estate demand. I am searching for as much information on electric-powered trams to develop a proposal to the town to generate interest in changing the public transportation methods and introduce electric-powered vehicles.

San Miguel had a horse-powered tram during the first half of the 20th century. It connected the train station (low elevation) with the downtown (approxiamtely 60 meters higher). I believe the return trip consisted of a free fall..

I believe re-introducing the service would raise the consciousness, initially at the tourist/visitor level and ultimately help reduce the number of vehicles and associated parking in the historic center.

I know little about the tram/streetcar topic, so this is a first stab. Can you share your experience with a similar situation, or ideas on how to approach a utility/manufacturer/transit authority in the US, Canada or Europe to sell, donate a fleet for my perpose? I know of sister city relationships that have produced great results in donating fire and rescue equipmnent to undeveloped world locations.

Thank you

Federico Vidargas

Station naming guidelines

I noticed this discussion rather late which is of importance Wikipedia_talk:Article_titles#Train_stations_.26_subway_stations_and_precision.