Category talk:Christian organizations established in the 1st century

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Organizations

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Years

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This category was nominated for deletion on 26 November 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

Category purpose?

I think that this category might be quite controversial, and it does not appear to add anything to the readers' knowledge. Historians disagree on when exactly many organizations were officially "established", and it seems a violation of NPOV to include those organizations in this category. I suggest deletion. Karanacs (talk) 19:15, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I created this category as a subset of category:Religious organizations established in the 1st century so that it can be put under category:1st century Christian history as well. If it is controversial now then it was already controversial before to say they were "established in the 1st century."

I agree that could be bias to claim the RCC was established in the 1st century, but that depends on many things such as what is the RCC. Feel free to delete it or any pages you think are too controversial. (but please consider that, wayever age they are, the Roman Catholic Church cannot be older than the Eastern Orthodox Church since they split from each other).

Even if we removed the category:Religious organizations established in the 1st century, how do we know when we can have such a category? The 2nd century? the 5th century? the 10th? --Carlaude ^(talk) 19:33, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I had not noticed that it was on the RCC page before, or I would have removed it before. I don't think it appropriate to delete the Religious organizations established in the 1st century category. There are religions that were more settled than Christianity during that time period, and organizations for those religions might well have been established in the 1st century. I am not familiar enough with those religions to know. Sourcing is going to be the biggest issue here - when are historians relatively unanimous that a particular organization was formed? With Christianity, I would imagine that anything before 400AD will likely be disputed. After that, I don't know. If you feel that we need to categorize religious organizations in this way, then it might be wises to create larger categories (so more than 2 or 3 articles in that category). Maybe something along the lines of: Christian organizations established between 0 and 1000 AD, Christian organizations established between 1001 and 1500 AD, Christian organizations established in the 16th century,...all the way to Christian organizations established in the 1950s, etc. By not going down to the most detailed year basis, we avoid a lot of potential controversy. Karanacs (talk) 20:19, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have you looked at these categories? This would result in thousands of pages in every category! In the year 1900 alone there are 16 organizations... and they all seem to be Christian organizations. --Carlaude ^(talk) 21:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This was just a suggestion for further discussion. It might be wisest to start the yearly categories earlier, but 16 members in a category is not much. 160 is larger but definitely manageable (they'd all appear on the same page). My main point is that I think for Christianity it is not a good idea to start at the century level before 400 AD as there are definite disagreements among historians as to what was going on (even diocese mentions that the term gained the meaning we give it today in the 9th century - that is uncited, though, so could be inaccurate). Karanacs (talk) 20:49, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, but so what? Even before "diocese" ment the "sphere of a bishop's jurisdiction" they still had the consept of a "bishop's jurisdiction" as long as they had bishops. And most historians agree that some churches had a bishops of this sort in the late 1st century.--Carlaude ^(talk) 21:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please look at say category:Religious organizations established in the 1st century to category:Religious organizations established in the 5th century. You will see that the vast majority are Christian organizations. Are you going to go and remove them from those categories?

It is not just a matter of how well established a religion was, but how much it kept records and if it stayed around long enoph for it write it down and keep the records undestroted until the time of the printing press. Few religious organizations can match Christianity for this sort of thing. This is in part because a theology devoloped that focus of the continous sucsions of bishops that was not so much a deal for other religions.

These categories are mostly for the sake of finding stuff pages and if the pages are more useful with them than without them then I think they sould all stay, but if you are going to start removing hundreds of these category tag I would like to know how in advance so that I can work with the will not be chaged by you, and hopfully have your system be more sensible. --Carlaude ^(talk) 20:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going on a crusade against these. I felt that the 1st century ones were highly misleading, and I strongly encourage you not to add articles to any of the others if the establishment date is not sourced, but I'm not going to check. I would be interested in working out a compromise, as I mentioned in my earlier post, and am awaiting your response to that suggestion. Karanacs (talk) 20:40, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why

You seem to object to Category:Christian organizations established in the 2nd century but not Category:Religious organizations established in the 2nd century, and this I do not understand why. Why don't you just edit the pages instead of fighting the category? a category that just lables them "Christian"? --Carlaude ^(talk) 20:50, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have the time or energy to clean up all the categories (or all the articles or all the topics I think need help). I prioritize what I work on. In this case, I noticed the 1st century category and it bothered me at that moment so I fixed it. The others also bother me but I don't have the time or energy to clean them up right now. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't a good argument in any place, including this discussion. I don't object to the "Christian" part. I object to labelling these places with an establishment date that is not supported by the sources that appear in the articles. Rather than distract this conversation into a question of my motives, would you be willing to work with me on a compromise? My initial proposal mentioned above would take care of these 2nd century establishment categories as well. Karanacs (talk) 20:56, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is why. Every time I go and remove a "Joe's Church" page from Category:Religious organizations established in the 2nd century and put it in Category:Christian organizations established in the 1st to 5th century, then any or all editors watching "Joe's Church" will (a) undo it and/or (b) complain to me and I will basiclly agree with them... but even if I did agreed with you instead, I don't have time or energy to argue with them or make changes that will be undone. --Carlaude ^(talk) 21:09, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]