Category talk:People of the Romanian revolution

Did Pleşu participate in the Romanian Revolution?

He is included in the category "People of the Romanian Revolution of 1989". However, I am not aware of any significant participation of Pleşu at the revolution. The fact that he was part of Petre Roman's government is not enough to make him a participant at the revolution. If nobody will provide sources regarding Pleşu's involvement in the revolution I will remove this category.--MariusM 20:16, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I personally don't think he need be included, but I want to clarify that the category should not be about "participants" in the revolution. It should be about people whose activities were connected with the revolution. I do believe that members of the Roman cabinet can fit into that definition. This is the principle behind any such category, because they should serve to reunite articles that are relevant to an issue and can help the reader have quick access to a who was who. I note that the rowiki equivalent is for "participants", but that simply has no bearing on this category - which, I have to point out, is named "People of".

I remember these issues coming up in a discussion I had with Turgidson, who started the category and filled it. He was concerned about these issues, and decided to go by the broadest definition of the terms involved. I agreed: not necessarily on a case-by-case basis, but because I knew that a broader term is preferable to a narrower term, just as NPOV is preferable to POV. Dahn 20:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

We have other categories, like Category:Romanian dissidents, which should be used for such cases. The revolution made many changes in the life of many Romanians, we should not include all people which had changes in their life as result of the revolution in the category "People of Romanian Revolution". Members of first Roman cabinet are not necesarly "people of the Romanian revolution" if they didn't have significant role in the revolution. The image of Roman cabinet as a government made by those who made the revolution is POV, even if some members of this cabinet had some roles in the revolution (to be clarified on which side). Pleşu was in Tescani, he was just an inocent guy, probabily proposed in powerless position of culture minister by Dinescu. The "Meditaţia Transcedentală" affair, where Pleşu was involved, was not significant for the revolution.--MariusM 22:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how the "dissidents" category is supposed to supplant that one, and I do see how it would be relevant to include all members of the Roman cabinet (and no, I don't want to pass judgment on who was wasn't powerful, since that is beside the point). Dahn 22:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Let me try to say a couple of words about this. As Dahn says, I grappled with these issues at some point, and the two of us tried to come up with some reasonable standards on who to include in Category:People of the Romanian Revolution of 1989. I agree, it's not an easy task, and the criteria are not clear-cut, especially to someone like me, who is really an outsider. Having said that, maybe it helps a bit having an outside perspective, and, from that point of view, I can say I heard of Andrei Pleşu for the first time right after the 1989 Revolution, when he became a minister in the Roman cabinet. Now, that tends to associate him with the Revolution, at least in my mind; I agree, such a link is somewhat tenuous, but still, it provides a rather tangible connection. Moreover, I agree with Dahn that Category:Romanian dissidents does not supplant this one — the two categories have some obvious elements in common, but neither is included in the other (I'd say, their symmetric difference is quite significant). At any rate, all in all I'd tend to support keeping Pleşu in the "1989" category, though if there is strong opinion to the contrary, I'd go along with it, since I don't really have a strong, objective argument in favor, but more of a feeling that it would be better to err on the side of inclusiveness in such a case. Turgidson 10:33, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The definition used by Dahn regarding this category ("people whose activities were connected with the revolution") is vague. Some can consider even Mikhail Gorbachev's or Lech Walesa's activities connected with the Romanian revolution, as the example of the actions of those two guys had a role in the encouragement or Romanian people to revolt. Also, any of the authors listed in the List of books about the Romanian Revolution of 1989 can be included in this category, if we are using Dahn's definition. My opinion is to keep in this category only people who participate in the revolution, regardless on which side. This is in line with the usage established in Romanian Wikipedia, where is also an explanatory note (written by me :-) ) on the similar category ("Această categorie include persoanele notabile care au participat la revoluţia română din decembrie 1989, indiferent de care parte a baricadei au fost. Nu include istorici sau ziarişti care au scris despre revoluţia din 1989, dacă n-au participat efectiv la ea"). There are a lot of people who can be included in this category based on the narrow definition (see also Romanian Wikipedia), we don't need to use a broad definition to populate the category.--MariusM 21:43, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Persons who I consider not belonging to this category

Following persons I consider that don't belong to this category and I propose their removal, unless some sources will change my mind:

• Gheorghe Apostol - he signed the letter of six, but to include him in "Romanian dissidents" category seems enough for me
• Tahsin Gemil - he was member of CPUN (february 1990) not of CFSN (december 1989)
• Gabriel Liiceanu - well known writer and editor, there are a lot of categories where he can be included but for this particular one I need to know his conections with the revolution (not only that he was very happy that the revolution happened)
• Bogdan Niculescu-Duvăz
• Andrei Pleșu
• Doru Viorel Ursu - minister of interior in Roman government, but only starting with 16 June 1990, after May 1990 elections.

I expect feedback from others regarding those cases.--MariusM 15:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I made an anouncement about this discussion also at Romanian Wikipedians notice board. As result of the fact that nobody objected on my proposals in 3 days I will proceed with the changes.--MariusM 20:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)