Draft talk:Wenwu

Requested move 17 December 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Lennart97 (talk) 10:38, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

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Wenwu (Marvel Cinematic Universe) → Wenwu – The page Wenwu is currently redirecting to the page for Kublai Khan, where the name has one mention (unsourced) as part of an apparently posthumously appended title (Emperor Shèngdé Shéngōng Wénwǔ) listed in the infobox. The name is not mentioned anywhere in the main body copy of the article, and I have not seen it referenced by any source. I see no WP:COMMONNAME case to be made that "Wenwu" is an Anglosphere common name for Kublai Khan, or even a common name for Kublai Khan in Chinese. His normal Chinese title is the equivalent of "Emporer Shizu of Yuan". "Shizu" is likewise the ONLY alternative common name listed in resources such as Encyclopedia Britannica: [1] On the other hand, Wenwu is very much the common name of the film character, and the name is frequently used by itself in reference to the character. The film character is also the overwhelming SEO-based destination for the term: [2] Ngram also shows little evidence of a Kublai-Wenwu connection or use of Wenwu prior to the 1980s: [3] Iskandar323 (talk) 08:15, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nominator. The fictional character is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC here. InfiniteNexus (talk) 17:52, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. —El Millo (talk) 21:57, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support Seems to be the clear primary topic now._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 18:10, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support no evidence has been provided that the emperor is commonly referred to as Wenwu.--65.93.193.134 (talk) 02:08, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. This is the primary topic. Trailblazer101 (talk) 02:25, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. ExcellentWheatFarmer (talk) 12:51, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Why is this here?

This article goes against the Wikipedia policy of a fictional character.

The policy stated that the character, after appearing in one movie, cannot have their own wiki page unless they have appeared in other projects. Moreover, if he is the main villain, then other main villains like Malekith, Ronan, Ego should have their own wiki page.

Clarifications? JEDIMASTER2008 (talk) 12:40, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

The article was submitted and accepted from an Articles for Creation review, without discussion about compliance with Wikipedia policy as far as I can tell. Per the recently agreed upon WP:NFILMCHAR: If a film character was adapted from another medium or work, and the original incarnation of the character already has an article, a new article should not be created for the adapted version unless one of the following criteria has been met: This interpretation of the character has received extensive coverage and commentary from reliable sources. For example: Joker (The Dark Knight). This interpretation of the character has made three or more non-cameo appearances, including one in a lead or titular capacity. For example: Bruce Wayne (Dark Knight trilogy). I would not consider Wenwu to be strictly an MCU original character, and this article acknowledges that with the based on information. I also don't find there to be "extensive" coverage of the character. It is also noted that Before creating an article in the mainspace or moving a draft to the mainspace, please discuss on the draft's talk page, the film or television series' talk page, or relevant WikiProject talk pages to ensure the character is notable to justify a split of the original incarnation's article. Please also note that some franchises, such as the Marvel Cinematic Universe task force's WP:MCUCHARACTERS, have franchise-specific criteria which expand on this guideline. In conclusion, I'm not sure this article should exist at this time. Also, the off-screen material does not justify as appearances given it is mentions. Trailblazer101 (talk) 13:32, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I think the rationale for not reverting the move way back when was that Wenwu sorta, kinda satisfies the "original" character criterion of MCUCHARACTERS, akin to Sylvie, but whether that's true is definitely open to debate. It was also submitted to AfC by one of TTT's socks, and there was some talk on whether to send all of their articles back to draftspace, but ultimately nothing came out of that discussion.

Honestly, these never-ending debates about character articles are starting to wear me out. I wouldn't be opposed to re-draftifying this article, but with Wenwu being dead it is unlikely this character will ever satisfy MCUCHARACTERS or NFILMCHAR, so we might as well just redirectify the article. InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:06, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm pretty much in the same headspace as you with these character article debates. I don't think these should be a main focus of the task force, or that they necessarily provide anything worth of value to Wikipedia that can't already be covered elsewhere. My stance on the ever-growing multitude of these in-universe articles is that there ought to be more direct coordination in what actually satisfies the guidelines, and what genuinely deserves or necessitates a separate article to exist.

Submissions being made outside of local consensus does not help, and I'm finding a rather lack of structure in several of these character articles, namely bloated fan cruft and minute reception in an attempt to justify their existence, which I don't see passing any qualifications of notability if the bulk of these articles is plotlines and character descriptions. This one in particular is focusing heavily on other characters, as well. I'm leaning heavily in favor to re-draftify character articles that do not fall inline with the MCU taskforce and NFILMCHAR guidelines. I don't typically watch these character articles, but this is kind of getting out of hand. This is a wider issue I plan to raise at the taskforce itself this summer when I have more time to sort through things, but this can be a start. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:31, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

There have been many attempts in the past to crack down on this issue, from Talk:Marvel Cinematic Universe/Archive 13 § Huge amounts of in-universe information / fan cruft creeping into this topic to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Archive 78 § Superhero film character articles to the recent Mystique debate, but so far nothing substantial has changed. MCUCHARACTERS and NFILMCHAR were created in an effort to mitigate this issue, but cases like this make one question MCUCHARACTERS' effectiveness, and now NFILMCHAR is being challenged on the WikiProject Film talk page. InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:51, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Well, this has reached further than I had anticipated. I noticed in those discussions that nothing has changed with the in-universe MCU lists that we have, which are poorly sourced and very FANCRUFTy. We'll need to do a thorough re-evaluation of the approach, direction, evaluations, and oversight of our guidelines in regards to these articles if we want to make a stand to ensure this encyclopedia pertains real world information. I'm all for an expanded encyclopedia, but one stemming from elaborate explanations of what is in the films and series is not the way to go. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:55, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Agreed on all points. InfiniteNexus (talk) 00:09, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

So, nominate it for deletion? There is nothing to offer by having a separate page on a one-time character. Thanos and other major characters have their own pages as they appeared throughout the MCU.

Thoughts? JEDIMASTER2008 (talk) 11:37, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Deletion isn't necessary. I can simply move it back to the draftspace and recreate the redirect for the character. Trailblazer101 (talk) 18:59, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done Trailblazer101 (talk) 19:55, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Trail. InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:33, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Um, Wenwu satisfies WP:MCUCHARACTERS as an original character. (Oinkers42) (talk) 18:26, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

And yet it does not satisfy WP:GNG as it lacks significant coverage, particularly in Reception. MCUCHARACTERS is a local consensus and does not supersede GNG. The article could definitely use further copyediting and additions of reliable sources for coverage and the biography of the character before being reconsidered for the mainspace (which should be done through a talk discussion and not an AfC submission). Just because an article can be made does not mean it ought to be made if it can be covered elsewhere. Trailblazer101 (talk) 19:13, 8 May 2023 (UTC)