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Archive 90 ← Archive 94 Archive 95 Archive 96

{Cite journal} pages styling

There is no 'p.', 'pg.', 'p ' or something of the sort indicating the numbers supplied in the page= or pages= parameters are pages for {cite journal}. Please change the displayed text from '<supplied-numbers>' to 'p. <supplied numbers>'.

Observe the example below, where I have only included page=400-500. It only displays '400-500', but it should display 'p. 400-500'

: 400-500. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)

(Perhaps I am wrong about this, and there is a special academic standard for citing journal page numbers I am unaware of?) Tule-hog (talk) 19:56, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

It seems fine to me as it is. What apart from a page span could be meant by an ndash-separated pair of increasing numbers following a colon following the volume and issue? Why not use {{cite periodical}} if you're unhappy with the display formatting of {{cite journal}}? Folly Mox (talk) 20:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
Firstly, note this also applies to page= which does not provide an n-dash. I thought the following was a little confusing along side a year:
. 2000: 1900. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
I thought it was incorrect, not bad. If others disagree, then let it stay! Tule-hog (talk) 20:49, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
Since we purport to be a publication for a generalist audience, I would think that we should format our citations for a generalist audience as well. Yes, that formatting is used in specialist publications, but we are not a specialist publication. For that reason, I continue to advocate that we should drop the overly truncated formatting for the volume/issue/page triplet on journals in favor of adding "vol.", "no." and "p." or "pp.". In short, it should be the way {{cite magazine}} does it without separating the vol./no. from the p. or pp. Imzadi 1979 → 20:57, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
I feel like the "vol." and "no." add undesirable cruft that is more difficult to identify on vgrep than the bolded volume number of {{cite journal}}. Just because we're not a specialist publication doesn't mean we shouldn't support multiple citation formats. Also, I like that the formatting between {{cite journal}} and {{cite magazine}} differs, which lets me see at a glance how reputable and peer-reviewed a source is / purports to be.
If there are confusion points in our citations to expunge for immediate understanding by any reader, I'd start with the lowest hanging fruit of Bibcodes and s2cids, which seldom if ever add any useful information even on clickthrough, and are entirely unfamiliar to almost every reader. Folly Mox (talk) 16:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
People get used to this formatting after seeing it a few times, and the concision is helpful. Making it more explicit helps someone the first time, but only at the expense of significantly reducing information density of reference sections, which isn't worth it IMO. –jacobolus (t) 02:36, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. – Jonesey95 (talk) 20:41, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
Is there a template to indicate the intent to use the {edit semi-protected} in future (i.e. 'request proposal', 'needs consensus', or something)? Tule-hog (talk) 20:52, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
No. You just discuss until there is consensus, and then you can remove |answered=yes from the template in this section to reactivate the request. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:22, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

If an italicized title ends in a question mark, shouldn't the following punctuation be suppressed?

For example:

Or likewise with an exclamation mark:

It seems like the output should not put a period or comma immediately after another punctuation symbol.

Edit: the relevant manual of style section is MOS:CONSECUTIVE. –jacobolus (t) 06:37, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Fully-protected edit request, August 17, 2024

You can see in the screenshots above that some characters (in this case, a lowercase I), when italicized, collide with the closing square brackets when using the |trans-title= parameter. This occurs on all skins. In this case I was using {{cite book}}, which italicizes the translated titles automatically, but this will also occur with other citation templates if the final character happens to be italicized. I have no idea where exactly this change needs to be made, but hopefully someone more well-versed in these modules will know better than me about that. Let me know if you have any questions! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 04:25, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. You didn't link to a page where this is happening, so I made my own. I get a slight white separation between the "i" and the right bracket. My default font is Lucida Grande, on Mac OS on a 2024-vintage laptop. I expect that everyone's formatting mileage will vary with font choices, screen resolution, and other computer-specific settings. Also, FWIW, your screen shots don't really show a connection or a gap, because of the blue highlighting. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:12, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
@Jonesey95: Thanks, I'm still learning exactly what information is helpful in bug reports like this. I took those screenshots in Firefox on Vector 2022 while logged out, so all the formatting should be what the majority of readers will be seeing. I highlighted the I because it looked like the white dot clipping the top of the bracket more clearly illustrated the issue, but oh well. I'm seeing the same kerning issue in your sandbox, obviously, so perhaps we could do with a third opinion on whether this is worth addressing — I remember working with Trappist the monk on a similar issue a few months ago. I'm setting the request to open again. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:24, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
I won't edit war with you over the edit request template, but please read its instructions. There is no "complete and specific description of the request, so that an editor unfamiliar with the subject matter could complete the requested edit immediately" here. This is simply a discussion.
I am also using Firefox with the Vector 2022 skin. I don't think the problem here is with this particular template, or even with Wikipedia; it is with the way that an italic "i" is rendered when it is followed by a square bracket. On your computer, if you go to a text editor or other program where you can type, and set the font and font size to the same settings as Firefox, do you see the same problem? – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:26, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
This is fully dependent on client configuration (specifically, the kerning pairs in the chosen display typeface). A hair space output when transitioning from oblique text to upright closing bracket could accommodate problem typefaces, but might make display wonkier for typefaces where the interaction is already accounted for. Folly Mox (talk) 17:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Not done, please made you request in a way that's actionable, e.g. "Change [this] to [that]". Until an exact change is requested, the edit request is premature. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:50, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Are Zotero Wikipedia Templates useable?

I just installed the "Wikipedia Templates" (version from 2021) from within Zotero, which are the only Wikipedia citation style that Zotero seems to have on offer. However, this always gives me a syntax that uses the "vauthors" parameter and always puts author names in double parentheses, e.g., vauthors=((Ellenberger, P.)). Is this correct? Am I doing something wrong, or is there an alternative Zotero citation style available somewhere that uses the standard last= and first= parameters instead? Thanks. Jens Lallensack (talk) 14:27, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Abusing the accept-as-written markup is wrong. I seem to recall a conversation some place where the participants were trying to find a way to avoid multiple author names in |author= (or something like that). Instead of working out a proper solution (enumerated author-name parameters), they chose to abuse the accept-as-written markup as their solution.
If we are to believe this search, there are 500ish articles that have |vauthors= with multiple accept-as-written marked-up names. No doubt, there is a proportion of those articles that legitimately use the markup. Those that are not should be repaired.
I know nothing about Zotero or whatever it is that you installed. But, given that the Zotero thingy does not produce proper output, were I you, I would uninstall and complain to Zotero about the poor quality of their thingy. I would also not hold my breath waiting for a positive (any?) response.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:02, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, that confirms my hunch that the Zotero templates are currently broken. I will try to fix it myself. Jens Lallensack (talk) 15:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Template:Cite journal documentation states that (( )) should only be used for institutional authors. This may be a fine distinction Zotero is having trouble picking up. CMD (talk) 15:22, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
I just updated to the latest version, prompted by Jens Lallensack's post. I find the structure strange, even though I've been using it occasionally for years. In Edit->Settings, there is a Cite panel, which (by default) doesn't mention Wikipedia. But in the Edit->Settings->Export panel there is a Quick Copy feature, and you can select the format for items that are quick copied. One of the choices is Wikipedia Citation Templates. I've found this method to be reasonable, although some touch-ups are usually needed after I copy. Clarification: I did not take any steps to install any additional Wikipedia format. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:47, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
@Jc3s5h: I thought that Zotero does not ship any Wikipedia template by default? Are you sure that it's not the old Wikipedia template you installed years ago (which works fine, as I remember)? If you go "Edit" -> "Settings" -> "Cite", what does the "Updated" field say for your Wikipedia template? If it is the older version that does not use vauthors, could you maybe send it to me? (Just go "Settings" -> "Cite" -> Select "Wikipedia Templates" -> click on "Style editor", and copy the xml code). That would be much appreciated, thank you. Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:04, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
Never mind, I found it (as you wrote, the "Wikipedia Citation Templates", not the "Wikipedia Templates" from the style repository). Great, that works for me now. Thanks. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 16:12, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Limit for s2cid needs increasing

Note that the value 270801523 is correct for s2cid and is larger than the currently configured limit of 270000000. —Jonathan Bowen (talk) 15:07, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Notice: discussions on WMDE sub-reference project in progress at Meta

The WikiMedia sub-referencing project (parent project: Reusing references) is having multiple discussions about the development of a sub-referencing feature by WikiMedia Deutschland Engineering. Your feedback would be welcome at any of the discussons at m:Talk:WMDE Technical Wishes/Sub-referencing. Mathglot (talk) 21:00, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Citoid adds PMC prefix

I sometimes make citations with "pmc" in the |pmc= parameter.[1] This is always the result of using Source Editor > Ref Toolbar > Cite > Templates > Cite journal > Autofill (Magnifying glass button). I believe the autofill is done by Citoid. Is it an error to include "pmc"? If so, how do we let the appropriate folks know? Rjjiii (talk) 20:47, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't use ve so can't speak to users who do. When I look at the RefToolbar form for {{cite journal}}, PMC is hidden behind the Show/Hide extra fields button and does not have autofill (no quizzing glass). Filling with PMID (PMID 33061789 in this case) which does have a quizzing glass and which would be most likely autofillable identifier to add PMC, does not fill the PMC parameter. Filling from URL and DOI likewise do not fill PMC.
Are you sure that RefToolbar is how you created that {{cite journal}} template?
It is not an error to include the PMC prefix when filling |pmc= but that does cause cs1|2 to add the article to Category:CS1 maint: PMC format.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 21:42, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Oh, dang, you're right, I must have done ProveIt on that one.
This doi "10.1098/rspa.2020.0148" in either the Visual Editor's automatic citation or ProveIt's automatic {{cite journal}} will add the prefix. Rjjiii (talk) 21:58, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

How do you use the autogenerated anchor, eg CITEREFBaldwinMarshall1999

In Toxic heavy metal the is an anchor CITEREFBaldwinMarshall1999, but I can't figure out how to use it in a ref tag. Johnjbarton (talk) 18:59, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

You can reference it with the {{sfn}} or {{harv}} families of templates. Kanguole 19:14, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
@Kanguole Thanks! But.. I'm still stuck. The sfn template needs names and dates. Where do I put "CITEREFBaldwinMarshall1999"? Thanks! Johnjbarton (talk) 19:22, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
The basic format for {{sfn}} templates for that would be {{sfn|Baldwin|Marshall|1999}}. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:31, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
The template automatically links to that format to CITEREFBaldwinMarshall1999. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:33, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
There are no {{sfn}} or {{harv}} templates in that article. Remember that WP:CITEVAR applies.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
That article is a mess. Keeping WP:CITEVAR in mind, to make a Baldwin Marshall 1999 short form reference, here are some options:
[[#CITEREFBaldwinMarshall1999|Baldwin Marshall 1999]]
[[#{{sfnref|Baldwin|Marshall|1999}}|Baldwin Marshall 1999]]
Both of these, to my mind, make life more difficult than it needs be. But, they work well with the cs1|2 templates. Alas, the article uses hand crafted fragment links so for strict compliance with WP:CITEVAR, this:
[[#Baldwin|Baldwin Marshall 1999]]
And you will get yet another short-form reference that does not link to its long-form companion – some do, but the majority do not so what is the purpose of all that fragment wikilinking?
Were I the chief, I would replace all of those fragment wikilinks with proper {{sfn}} templates. Alas, I'm not. To accomplish that you will need to achieve consensus at the article talk page
You are aware that there are two instances of Baldwin Marshall 1999 which appear to be the same source?
—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:37, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, but to be honest I don't understand all these options and half of the words. Anyway someone else already changed over to sfn ;-) Johnjbarton (talk) 19:45, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
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